DonaldSmith Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 My 47 DeSoto has the steering wheel, jacket and shaft-gearbox lying separately on the bench, awaiting conversion to power steering. Before I cut the jacket and shaft, I'm finishing some final research. I gave up on electric power steering, because the unit would have to mount under the dashboard, and I would have to do major work to offset the shaft away from the gearshift shaft. The pitman shaft is 1-1/4 inch, with 36-and-4 spline count. (Every 9th spline has been flattened, to index the pitman arm.) The steering shaft is 7/8-inch tube, with the hollow center more than a half inch diameter. I can get the power steering gearbox, pump, hoses, etc., locally, and can source the U-joints, shaft, etc. from various suppliers for the best prices. Borgeson is the major manufacturer and supplier of U-joints, splines, etc., but their prices are high, especially for the steering gear and pump. I've figured out the bushing for the end of the steering jacket, probably from McMaster-Carr, and I think I can improvise a horn wire gizmo, although limeworkspeedshop sells a kit for about fifty bucks. (I want to keep my present steering wheel with its horn ring, but the wire has to come out of the hollow shaft somewhere.) I'll size a U-joint to connect the steering end of the steering gear to a new 3/4 DD shaft. Then a 3/4 DD - 3/4 DD U-joint near the cut end of the existing 7/8-inch shaft. The final connection will have to be a coupler welded to the 7/8-inch shaft. I will need to have a machine shop ream out the end of a coupler to 7/8 inch, and do the welding. The steering gear may need a mounting bracket fabricated to match the existing frame bolts. I will have to be inventive in locating the power steering pump, and cobbling up a bracket. I'll take the radiator out so that I can see what I'm doing. Maybe relocate the alternator lower. I'll have to switch out the wide belt pulleys for narrow belts, with double pulleys for the crankshaft and water pump. So, wish me luck. Informative comments and well wishes welcome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48ply1stcar Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Donald This sounds like quite an undertaking. As I read your post I thought while having power steering would be nice it would eliminate my upper body exercise machine. Good luck with your project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941Rick Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Have you looked at a power rack and pinion set up? This setup was taken from this forum. I do not know who posted it originally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Per James Douglas, for heavy cars like ours, a rack and pinion would have to be custom made. So I'm going for the conventional steering gearbox. I'm about to order one. Then I'll verify the pitman shaft diameter and figure out what bracket may have to be fabricated to mount the box. Thanks, 1941Rick, for the photo of a bracket for the alternator and pump. I'll need something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
builtfercomfort Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Please document the parts etc you use - power steering is in my long term plans and I'd like to know about more options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Douglas Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Hi Don, I have been busy with non-car things. I see that the electric will get in the way of the shift rod. In a year or so when I do mine, it should work as I am going to put in a torqueflite with push buttons... The drivers side heater box may be a problem though. ***** To the other guys asking about rack & pinion. I looked into it and I could not find a unit that had the "pivot" in the correct place so as to not have an issue with bump steer. I checked with the guys at flaming river and the other custom rack makers and non of them make one for a car over 3500-4000 pounds. A fully loaded Desoto long wheel base (LWB) suburban can top that. ***** The new electric assist I think will work for me, but as Don found out you have to do something about the shifter rod... Keep us posted with photos Don. Best, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FULMNTE Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Which PS gearbox will you use to match the existing pitman arm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 The gearbox will arrive tomorrow, and then I can check the pitman shaft dimensions. It should be 1-1/4", 36 + 4 (40 splines but 4 if them flattened). I saw a gearbox on the internet that had the right shaft dimension. It was for Mopar B and E bodies of certain years. I had a 77 Fury once, which is a B body of the right yer. My 77 Fury (a POS) had a loose gearbox. The box would move and bind the U-joints. Much younger back then, I dropped the subframe and engine to get at the gearbox to drill and tap it for another bolt. So I bought a box for a 77 Fury from O'Reilly, a Cardone 27-6542,for about $150, Logging in with a mythical 77 Fury. Borgeman wants about $750 for their unit. . I have already rigged up a horn wire commutator for the steering shaft. The bushings and collar for the shaft are coming today. Then I can assemble the steering column. I have to devise a mounting at the firewall. Woodward Performance Steering makes a plug to weld to the hollow shaft that has a 3/4-20 splined end, to connect with a U-joint. Once the steering gearbox arrives, I'll check its splined end and order the plug and U-joints. Each U-joint will connect to a new 3/4DD shaft. By the way, I need about 8 inches of 3/4DD shaft. I can buy if on line, but someone may have a chunk left over from a steering job. So stay tuned for further developments. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fstfish66 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 subscribed,,very interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 The steering gearbox arrived! And the pitman shaft matches the original! 8 splines and a gap, etc. I suppose it's a 32 + 4. Cardone 27-6542, UPS from O'Reilly, $154.75 total. The output shaft is 5/8 -32? I'll double-check the count, before ordering a U-joint. The anchorage is different. I'll have to design a bracket to connect the two anchor holes at the front and a fin on the side with the three anchor bolt holes in the frame. I may grind back the fin, to keep the pitman shaft in the same location as the original.d I had to rework the horn contact. A 1-inch copper pipe works for the sleeve, isolated from the shaft by a cardboard strip and secured with epoxy. But I got cute, and added a copper coupling, to increase the diameter of the commutator sleeve. Surprise! The 1-1/2" diameter jacket has an internal fin, which grounded the sleeve during a bench test. So, it's back to the 1-inch pipe alone. I ran an insulated 14-gauge solid wire (house wiring) through an oblong hole in the shaft to the steering wheel end. Before I fished the wire in, I coiled the wire around a dowel, to provide some wiggle room. So far, the bench tests check out. I'll 'splain the steering column and horn wire contact later. Stay tuned for further developments. I promise to post pictures eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Man you're done some homework on the change! Just don't cheap out on the u-joints-your life depends on them. Buy the best-pay the price. Great work! I put a 1967 Mustang manuel box on my 50 Suburban ( box was shot) years ago. The Pitman was smaller than yours at 1-1/8"-36 that marched the cars pitman arm. Tack welded the pitman arm in place with steel suppot rods while the original steering box was still in place and centered the steering and then removed the original box and centered the mustang box and figured out what to build for the mount and then used u joints as you plan. My suggest that you also pin the plug that will get welded to the hollow shaft. more safety insurance. Look forward to your progress posts! Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Done for tonight. Made a wood template to support the gearbox in the same location as the existing, and to figure out a mounting bracket. Some ideas are coming to mind. The pitman shaft will be about a half inch more to the right than the existing. Otherwise it lines up. I'll adjust the tie rods accordingly. The gearbox came with explicit instructions on how to clean out the existing "Return Nozzle (valve) Body", but stated that the Return Nozzle Body does not come with the rebuilt box. It must be something between the hoses and the gearbox, but I have not been able to find such an animal on line. I'll search tomorrow. I'll call the rebuilder. I ordered Borgeson U-joints and DD shaft. They've been around forever, and have much useful technical information. I ordered the stub for the steering shaft. Yes, I'll pin it in addition to welding. Enough for today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Keith Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Dodge Dakota has rack and pinion steering. The weight of the truck is in the ball park but I guess this RNP doesn't fit the S11. If I went to power steering I'd probably replace the entire front suspension, which is to say I'm sticking with what I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Daily report: Called Cardone re: Return Nozzle Body not included with the gearbox. Duh, we don't include these anymore. Use the old one. No old one? Huh. Call O'Reilly online. Called O'Reilly online (on the phone). They just ship from the warehouse. Talk to the retail store manager; he may be able to special order the part. Went to O'Reilly retail store. Manager tried to help, e-mailed a supplier. Seasoned counterman gave me the number of a local power steering guru, who searched his place for a Return Nozzle Body, but had none. They are aluminum, and break easily (scarce). Try Warhoops Junkyard. Warhoops (under new management) had some Dodge Ram trucks. No match. Inspiration!~ This whole thing started looking for a box with the 1-1/4-36 pitman shaft. So, why Mopar? Looked up full-size rear-wheel-drive GM cars. They look like they don't have a separate Return Nozzle Body. Some different configurations of holes. (Holes on left side, where they should be,) Will call Cardone tomorrow, and suffer the wait, to get through with a tech expert. 1`-1/4-inch shaft? No separate Return Nozzle Body? If OK, will order a gearbox from O'Reilly on-line. (If it's no good, I can return it to the local store.) Meanwhile, the U-joints and shaft came. Horn wire contact works. Awaiting plug for end of tubular steering shaft. Tune in tomorrow, for more exciting adventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fstfish66 Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 i think i know what your talking about return nozzel,,, you can get one at a junk uard or probably any other mopar forum,,,maybe e bay,,, try placing an add on www.moparts.com or www.forAbodiesonly.com or www.forBbodiesonly.com some one will have it,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Breaking news! Don't need no return nozzle body. Returned the Mopar-type steering box to the local O'Reilly's. I ordered a Cardone 27-6529, that fits some GM models, . I called Cardone and verified that it has a return port instead of a valve body, and has a 1-1/4-inch pitman shaft. The local O'Reilly will have the new box in their store tomorrow afternoon. The photos of the 27-6529 show the mounting holes on the right side,that is the left side, so if they don't exactly fit the existing holes in the frame, it will be simple to drill some new holes. I'm a happy camper, at least until the next challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadowbrook Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Would it be an option to retrofit a power steering system from an early 50's Chrysler or DeSoto? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 The early Chrysler and DeSoto PS systems are weird. The power steering motive force is built into the steering column, and the pump is mounted on the back of the generator. So it's easier to use components that happen to be made for gee emm products. Just don't tell anyone. The components are all painted black anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Happy Day! The Saginaw steering gear arrived today. ( I know it's a gearbox but it's easier to call it the gear, or even shorter, the box. It's for a mythical 1970 Pontiac Safari, but don't tell.) I set the new gearbox in the wood fixture I had made which shows the location of the existing holes in the frame and the existing pitman shaft. With the box sidled up against the frame, the pitman shaft is the right distance out from the frame, within a quarter inch. I will need to locate new holes in the frame, and will need various lengths of spacers,since the bosses for the bolts are set back from the side of the frame. Not so difficult. Tomorrow I have the 3/4-20 stub welded to the end of the hollow steering shaft, (The old shaft is actually a length of half-inch pipe, about 9/16" I.D. and 7/8" O.D., turned down and splined at one end, and who knows at the gearbox end.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 (Lack of ) Progress Report (or great learning experience,or trial-fit) I got the steering column cut down, fashioned a bracket at the firewall, and had a splined plug welded in the end. And the horn commutator is done. I got the steering gear box mounted, reusing one of the holes in the frame and drilling two new holes. (Hint: Ever notice the the holes in the outboard side of the frame rail are larger than the inboard ones? Make sure the new outboard holes are larger, so that the through-bolts will thread into the gearbox.), Making a template, I located the holes for the gearbox to put the pitman arm in the same location as that of the old gearbox. Then I moved the hole locations down about 3/4-inch, to reuse one of the existing holes. Then I measured the relative locations of the gearbox shaft and the steering column. Borgeson, the U-joint manufacturer, strongly recommends that the shaft angle not exceed 35 degrees. As I suspected, the steering gearbox is too low. I'll rework the end of the steering column to gain a few inches. I'll have to cut the shaft and weld in a new splined plug. (I was smart enough to order two.) For locating the steering box, I'll concentrate on keeping the ends of the tie rods in about the same position, while raising an rotating the gearbox. Nothing says that the input shaft has to be parallel to the steering column, I'm posting a photo looking down on the situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
builtfercomfort Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Will you have the same pitmann arm travel with the new box? What will it do to your turning radius? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 I had measured the pitman arm travel at about 75 degrees. The new gearbox rotates the shaft about 90 degrees, so I should be all right. The old box has a ratio of 21:1, at four-and-a-half turns lock to lock. This and the large steering wheel were to assist the Armstrong steering method. So I'm expecting the new steering to be much faster, like a modern car. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
builtfercomfort Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Thanks! I'll be following closely - thanks also for the detailed explanations. If this works out like you hope it could pave the way for many followers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yesterday I located the steering box so that I can connect it with the steering shaft. I rotated the box about an existing hole. I carefully marked the location of the new hole to be drilled in the frame, and managed to drill the hole a half-inch off. I have a new-found sympathy for Wiley Coyote. I supported the gearbox with a come-along hoist hooked to a pipe across the fenders. Of course, the rope sling on the box was too loose to hoist the box high enough. Re-sling it. And the box was not square to the frame. Twist and shove. I used long threaded rods instead of bolts to pull the box against the frame. That works well. The threaded bosses on the box are not flush with the frame, so I'm adding spacers. Get one threaded rod engaged, and the second rod should screw right in, if the dumb hole is in the right place. Once everything is secure, I can replace the threaded rods with real bolts. Well, that's the plan. It's cold, and this morning we are getting a light snowfall. Eventually I'll get back outside. (I have to work with the garage door open, since the car barely fits and I have to get around the front if of it.) I'll double-check the dimensions and cobble the hole to fit. I still have the challenge of relocating the alternator, locating the power steering pump, and re-doing the pulleys and belts. But one frustration at a time. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty t Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Steering Column Horn Contact BrushFits 41-49 MB, GPW, CJ-2AItem #: A302 New Replacement Steering Column Horn Contact Brush (1 required per vehicle)Mounts on your lower outer steering c... Qty. more details » $12.75 i've got this for the horn on my 48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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