1 Ton 230/6 Trans or Overdrive Options

[bumpside]

My 49 1 ton has the 4.3.  It cruises comfortably at 45-48 actual w 6.50-16's in the back.  A 3.9 is going to give you about a 10% increase w/o changing the rear tire size.  I'm going to 7:00's in the back which should raise it a bit more.  I'd go to 7.50's but in a dual configuration the sidewalls would be touching.  Mike

That's about where we're at.  It'll do "around town speeds" for here in the LA/OC Metro area but it's actually dangerous to be going less than 50 on the freeway here unless you're over 60,000 lbs.  Since my old man wants to go to shows (nothing fancy but he likes to go look and really likes showing up in "his own" piece), it needs to be able to get up to 55 or 60 on the flats.  I did the math and tires just aren't going to get us there in a reasonable manner.  I wish but....

 

 

You cannot go out and just find a drop in set of gears for the dodge 1 tons. Rear end gears and pumpkins have always been tough to find-especially a 3.9 ratio.

I have always wanted a really nice 3.9 ratio for my 1 ton and heve never found one that was tight and the gears pit free...in over 35 years!!!!

That's what I figured but I wanted to ask the experts.  Sounds like what I expected.

 

 

So, Scott - welcome to the 1 ton dually club!

I'm with you and your Dad on the desire to get higher cruise speeds, but retain the character and bullet-proof nature of the truck 4-speed. I have the same setup in my 1942 WD-21.

One of the main problems is keeping your wheel set, very important for a dual rear tire setup. The other issue is that I use my 1 ton for what it was meant for.

I've investigated just about every option at this point.

I'm thinking of going with a Gear Vendors solution. They have an overdrive that will permit us to retain the original transmission, brake, and rear end.

Has anyone any experience with the Gear Vendors products in this type (vintage medium-large truck) vehicle?

Sounds like where we're heading as things develop.  Between wanting the deep granny gear and wanting to keep a stockish shifter location, I think we're going to be stuck with a GV or Nash/US Gear unit of some type.  They are damn tough and also get you a "splitter" so that you can drop a half on a hill (4OD too high?  Drop -> 4 Direct still too high? Drop to 3OD, etc.)  When you're RPM limited and power limited, more gears are good.  You've highlighted one of my quests for more data:  how close is the T9 to it's successors the T98 and T18/T19?  For instance, I'm planning on pulling a Ford setup (input shaft and bell pattern) T18 from one of my trucks for a "close ratio" T19 so we will have one sitting around.  It wouldn't be different other than not having to double poke but I'm thinking it might be easier to find a cheap used GV for unless the old T9 is far more similar than I expect. 

 

Meanwhile, GV does offer a fully divorced kit for $2995 with mounts but that's a lot of green for the old blue truck.  The upside is that the GV unit is well known for durability with ridiculous loads, has easily available parts, and would require minimal changes (mount, shorten driveshaft, and mount switch on shifter). 

 

BTW, I'm laughing at you having the Ford and the Deere.  Being a bluey, I'm on board for truck and my pops was a Deere mechanic under my grandfather for a few years as well.  Even I have a soft spot for green and yellow since it's been so ground in.

[TodFitch]

That's about where we're at.  It'll do "around town speeds" for here in the LA/OC Metro area but it's actually dangerous to be going less than 50 on the freeway here unless you're over 60,000 lbs.  . . .

So going by a scrap metal dealer and getting 30 tons of lead and hauling that in the back would make you safe on the freeway?

[bumpside]

So going by a scrap metal dealer and getting 30 tons of lead and hauling that in the back would make you safe on the freeway?

 

Pretty much!  Between the cars cutting you off when merging, the 4 ton SUVs flying by, and the container haulers doing 70 in the slow lane, you pretty much have to be heavy enough to pull right of way to be safe!  When I'm following a 75 ton crane I feel alright about it since I'm running pretty heavy too but less than that and I'm nervous!

[wayfarer]

Just thinking out loud here......seems to me that for $3000 you could replace the rear as well as the trans with more freeway speed-appropriate pieces and not have any worries about the age/condition of the existing parts.  If your considering a GV unit then 'original' is not sacred.

[jeffsunzeri]

 

Just thinking out loud here......seems to me that for $3000 you could replace the rear as well as the trans with more freeway speed-appropriate pieces and not have any worries about the age/condition of the existing parts.  If your considering a GV unit then 'original' is not sacred.

 

The bucks are about the same, but the Gear Vendors units are pretty good at retaining originality as much as possible. Concours judges take no points away for using them.

I've got a Laycock OD unit from a Volvo, which is the same starting point as the GV units. I'll be modifying it for one of my trucks, but that $3,000 is actually looking pretty cheap when we factor in the amount of work needed to do the modification and fit-up. For someone who doesn't have the welding and machining shop capabilites, the GV unit appears to be a genuine bargain.

Replacing the rear end and trans with modern stuff in a 1 ton... might as well buy a '93 whatever and just paint "Pretend it's an old truck" on the side.

[bumpside]

Just thinking out loud here......seems to me that for $3000 you could replace the rear as well as the trans with more freeway speed-appropriate pieces and not have any worries about the age/condition of the existing parts.  If your considering a GV unit then 'original' is not sacred.

You definitely have a point but there are a few contrary facts.  Throwing in a divorced GV requires a few extra small holes (frame bolts and wires) and a shorter driveshaft but changing back to "stock enough to satisfy a museum" is only that far away.  On the other hand, everything else I'm finding requires the shaft plus a different hole in the floor for the shifter as a minimum.  If we want to keep the original shifter location and a deep low gear, the latter requires a "truck" gearbox and the former seems to only allow for truck 4 speeds as even the later 5s are all shifted from further back.  The parking brake is just the icing on the cake.

 

I really like a simple 5 speed conversion but it's looking harder and harder given our requirements.  The only option I'm finding left is a NV4500 or NV3550 but they're almost as expensive for a fresh(ish) one and they still don't support a parking brake as well as being shifted quite far back as far as I can tell.  I'd really love to just throw in a later 5 speed but it seems more and more like that's not going to get us what we want any cheaper or with fewer mods.   Which trans do you recommend as the simplest (no or minimal floor cutting, 6volt starter compatible, and 4.0 or numerically higher first gear)?  BTW, I'm not calling you out, I know you've got a wealth of knowledge on this subject and I'm sure you have the dirt on what how the options work out in the end. 

 

Really, the only "original" way to get where we want is the 3.7 or 3.9 gears and I'm being told they're pretty much unobtanium.  That or an old brownie box from a period correct semi-truck which is also absurd to find.  At this point, I'm starting to lean towards just trailering the damn thing to the further jaunts.  Considering he only paid a bit over $3K for the whole truck, it's getting crazy to spend that much trying to get it to keep up with traffic on the freeway.

[nonstop]

Correct me as I am probably wrong, but is the center hump removeable? If so, why not get a reproduction or used center hump and just cut a hole in it for a later trans? We recently did a 58 chevy with a World Class T5. I forget which set up we used, but used the main box from one and the tail from a different application, which moved the shifter forward. It seems like it would be cheaper, and should you be worried about the other issues (originality and all) the original trans can be put back in am afternoon. Additionally, there would be no additional wiring to run.

Another option is a rear end swap. A Dana 70 can yield gears as high as 3.54 (3.07 if you looked hard) and can come with 6 lug hubs to match the current pattern. Again, you can pull the current rear and sit on it if you decide to put it in for originality again.

Sorry if all this had been covered, I came in late on this one.

[bumpside]

Correct me as I am probably wrong, but is the center hump removeable? If so, why not get a reproduction or used center hump and just cut a hole in it for a later trans? We recently did a 58 chevy with a World Class T5. I forget which set up we used, but used the main box from one and the tail from a different application, which moved the shifter forward. It seems like it would be cheaper, and should you be worried about the other issues (originality and all) the original trans can be put back in am afternoon. Additionally, there would be no additional wiring to run.

Another option is a rear end swap. A Dana 70 can yield gears as high as 3.54 (3.07 if you looked hard) and can come with 6 lug hubs to match the current pattern. Again, you can pull the current rear and sit on it if you decide to put it in for originality again.

Sorry if all this had been covered, I came in late on this one.

I could be wrong but I wish you were right.  I'm under the impression that the floor is one piece (ish) with no center hump or removable panel like the later stuff I'm used to (60's and 70's blue oval stuff).  I'll check and I'll be happy if someone can save me the trouble but I'm fairly sure I'm not wrong.  If it were a separate piece and we could save the original "panel" of any shape, that would make a T5, AX15, or NV3550 a much more attractive option even if we'd be losing a bit of low gear (6.XX vs. 4.0ish is a bigger difference than you'd think and we use it). 

 

I've thought about getting a custom Dana 70 or 80 but I'm pretty sure we'd be spending similar money by the time we had perches done, a gearset, and a custom axle to switch between hub pilot and stud pilot.  I'll have to think about that though as it might be the most reasonable option available at this point.  Hell, we could even go to a wheel based parking brake.  Still, I'm pretty sure it'll be expensive as well. 

 

Anyway, thanks for the ideas.  I was resisting the rearend swap but it might be worth a real deep look after all.  The hump angle could change things too but I'm pretty sure I'm right on that one. 

[MBF]

I think that the only rear you're going to find that will have the same bolt pattern is from a Mid 60's Ford F-350 with a V-8, or an IH 1 ton of that vintage.  The Kaiser military Jeep of that period (I forget the model designation) does use the same bolt pattern, but due to its off road capabilities I would imagine in geared quite low.  None of the newer stuff uses the bolt pattern of these 6 lug Budds.  I know, I've been looking for several years.  Another problem is that you may have to get the rear narrowed to match your current rear width.  Mike

Edited August 14, 2014 by MBFowler

[nonstop]

A lot of these can be mixed and matched. A rear from an f350 from the junkyard with 3.54s would be a great starting place. Mix that with IH, old F350, or mid 60s Dodge D300/W300 hubs and you already have gears. MIGHT have to get it narrowed - not too expensive, considering and perches from Summit and my guess is less than $1k for a rear end set up. It really depends on the money or time.

[wayfarer]

OK, we have discussed a 2-speed rear and it was discounted, and swapping to something like the AX-15 or NV3550 is NOT a 'simple' afternoon project as I mentioned before. It requires replacing the stock bellhousing and the late starter requires 12 volts so that would not fit into your plans.

So, is there a suitable 5/6 speed that could be adapted to your existing bell?  The challenge is spending the time to find it. The only requirement (in terms of adapting) is finding a trans with a similar length (or longer) input shaft. The bolt pattern is the easy part. Per your requirements, the shifter position would also need to be close. Then, what about durability ? The t-5 is certainly not a heavy-duty trans; would it survive in your application? Personally, I'd stay with a 'truck' trans that offered a .6 to .7 reduction but then I am a glutton for punishment so I'd go the NV route and make it work.

 

It really would seem to be that the axle needs to be the focus.

[Jeff Balazs]

Bumpside;

Have you tried Sutton Differential in La Habra? I think they are on Lambert......seems to me it would be a good place to talk with about a custom axle

Just a thought.

 

Jeff.

[bumpside]

A lot of these can be mixed and matched. A rear from an f350 from the junkyard with 3.54s would be a great starting place. Mix that with IH, old F350, or mid 60s Dodge D300/W300 hubs and you already have gears. MIGHT have to get it narrowed - not too expensive, considering and perches from Summit and my guess is less than $1k for a rear end set up. It really depends on the money or time.

That's the kind of info that I was looking for on the axle - common parts sources.  If we do an axle, a junkyard D70 or D80 from an older F350, a trip to the axle shop, and a simple swap would net him the gear he wants for the highway and a still reasonable creeper for the low with no other changes.  I was leaning this way until a conversation with my dad last night but this is still #1 on the list of simplest fixes.

 

OK, we have discussed a 2-speed rear and it was discounted, and swapping to something like the AX-15 or NV3550 is NOT a 'simple' afternoon project as I mentioned before. It requires replacing the stock bellhousing and the late starter requires 12 volts so that would not fit into your plans.

So, is there a suitable 5/6 speed that could be adapted to your existing bell?  The challenge is spending the time to find it. The only requirement (in terms of adapting) is finding a trans with a similar length (or longer) input shaft. The bolt pattern is the easy part. Per your requirements, the shifter position would also need to be close. Then, what about durability ? The t-5 is certainly not a heavy-duty trans; would it survive in your application? Personally, I'd stay with a 'truck' trans that offered a .6 to .7 reduction but then I am a glutton for punishment so I'd go the NV route and make it work.

 

It really would seem to be that the axle needs to be the focus.

Thank you very much for the input.  It seems that my old man is a glutton for punishment as well as he seems to really like the NV4500 idea.  It may be because he has one in his DD `97 Cummins powered Ram but that's not my real concern.  He's leaning towards that after we discussed the shifter position change as he's up for a replacement center panel in the floor and we do have access to another truck bell for testing fitment etc.  I'll likely be contacting you about this directly for further details. 

 

Bumpside;

Have you tried Sutton Differential in La Habra? I think they are on Lambert......seems to me it would be a good place to talk with about a custom axle

Just a thought.

 

Jeff.

Thanks Jeff!  I'll be hitting them a diff shop I've used over in Hacienda Hts./La Puente as well.  Thanks for the rec!

 

And thanks again to all the above.  You guys are a great crew!

[bumpside]

Correct me as I am probably wrong, but is the center hump removeable? If so, why not get a reproduction or used center hump and just cut a hole in it for a later trans? We recently did a 58 chevy with a World Class T5. I forget which set up we used, but used the main box from one and the tail from a different application, which moved the shifter forward. It seems like it would be cheaper, and should you be worried about the other issues (originality and all) the original trans can be put back in am afternoon. Additionally, there would be no additional wiring to run.

Another option is a rear end swap. A Dana 70 can yield gears as high as 3.54 (3.07 if you looked hard) and can come with 6 lug hubs to match the current pattern. Again, you can pull the current rear and sit on it if you decide to put it in for originality again.

Sorry if all this had been covered, I came in late on this one.

 

So I do have to revise my previous answer.  It seems my old man recalls the center panel of the floor being a removable separate piece, so you are likely correct and I'm going to thank you for a great idea on that.  Not that we wouldn't have gotten there eventually ourselves but I'm all for saving time spent banging my head against a wall.  My poor battered cranium thanks you!

 

Also, the axle swap is looking like a good idea regardless of whether we do the trans and your post reminded me of the universality of the Dana axles - they can be configured just about any way you can imagine so there's no reason we couldn't get one setup to keep the original wheels which is the biggest concern for the rear end.  Thanks again!