4 speed shifter question

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Guys;

I just recently replaced the clutch in my truck. I had a struggle to get the shifter mechanism back in and working. My truck is a fluid drive with a synchro 4 speed and this combination results in a situation where the access to the top plate is somewhat limited.

It took me several attempts to get it in so that I could actually shift through all the gears. Now it works but is particularly difficult to shift from 2nd into 3rd without grinding. It didn't seem to be that way before all this.

 

What I am wondering is if one of the selector forks is in a position that that allows it to shift......but not correctly? I don't know if I am making sense.......but I can get it into gear.......just not as smoothly as I think it should be. Before I go after this again I thought I would see if anyone here had any pearls of wisdom on this topic.

 

Thanks, Jeff

[41/53dodges]

Really if it is working at all then it couldn't be reassembled wrong, otherwise you couldnt shift either into or out of gear. perhaps you dinged something in the transmission or got some dirt in it on reassembly?

[DJ194950]

My thought,

with all the messing arround trying to get the top back on, one of the shifter forks on the rail got pushed slightly out of position.

Unfortunenately you'll have to remove it again! Loosen the set screws make sure that they center in the hole in the rails for them and try again.

 

Sorry!

 

Best

 

Doug

[Jeff Balazs]

Doug;

I was wondering if it could be something like what you describe. There isn't too much to go on in the manuals regarding this .....or how to adjust it.

It just feels sloppier than before going into 1st or 3rd. I knew I was going to have to pull the top off again to resolve this.......I am just not certain what to do when I get the top off. I see the bolt or set screw in the parts diagram. I suppose if one is loose I will have a clue.....but if not? There isn't any data on what the actual position should be.

 

Jeff  

[DJ194950]

My experience with old 4 sp. truck trans were mostly in forklifts that had mopar flat 6's. We always took the top off

to do clutch work. Who made the tranny? To many years ago for my memory, but with the top off clamp the shifter lever in a vice with soft jaws and look at the shifter rods that have a drilled hole in the proper place to hold the forks. NO adjustment possible, but was slightly loose it could have have shifted some.

Removed one lock bolt at a time to check the hole and make sure that it did not get mushroomed over the years from a loose set screw. If not put screw back in with it centered over the hole.

After doing this to both rods, check to see if in neutral position the side to side slot allows the shifter to easlily move back and forth between the two rail neutral slots.

If not aligned, your spring loaded bearings have a problem, or the the detents are worn. The rails can be removed to check this or just remove the springs and balls to see the detents.

This info may not be exactly perfert for you trans but everyone I touched in the past worked by a simular method.

Best of luck,

Doug

[Jeff Balazs]

Thanks very much Doug;

I will look at these items and see if I can't get it to work properly.

It wouldn't be a bad job at all if they had extended the access cover cutout back another couple of inches. As it is with the additional length of the fluid drive the shifter mechanism cannot drop straight in......it has to be cocked around to clear the rear section of the cab floor. This complicates things and makes it a more difficult job than it really needs to be.

 

Again thanks for your assistance with this.

Jeff

[DJ194950]

Check those items first.
Time for a floor mod.? I'm quick to eliminate problem areas like that but your so far along the desire to make it work also carries the day!   
While the top is off double check condition of the synchros.

Your SO close, hang in there, you'll overcome!

 

Doug

[Jeff Balazs]

Doug;

You know it is funny but the floor had a couple of notch cuts in this area and looked as if it had been bent up at one time.

Of course I "fixed"    this when we were adding the seat belt mounts to the cab. So much for trying to do it right.

 

What should I be looking for on the synchros? The only transmission work I have ever got really comfortable with is the old Burman boxes used on Brit bikes of the 30's thru the 60s ....... I am pretty good at getting those to work properly.......but when it comes to automotive type stuff I just don't have much experiance.

 

Jeff

[DJ194950]

Some others here are probably well more informed on the syncros    but I  ask, are they brass (most are, they a few diff. types.) . If so they should have teeth with tapered angle cut on them to help a sliding gear( the ones that change ) sliding forward or backward to  engage a differant drive ratio. Look at the edges of the synchros to make sure the teeth are still there and have a gradual taper to help the gear engage.

After looking at several of the synchros you will see what i"m taking about. A little study of what rail moves what fork will tell you which one is involved when the third gear engagement. Compare that to the others since you have a synchro'ed trans and have something to compare to.

Fully expect yor problem is the shifter rail as decribed before, but thought while the PTIA shifter is off -why not look at  another possibility.

 

Best to ya,

 

Doug

[Jeff Balazs]

Thanks Doug;

I will take a closer look. I don't recall seeing any brass colored stuff.

 

I think it almost has to be shifter related as it was pretty good before removing the shifter during the clutch replacement.

 

Jeff

[Jeff Balazs]

So I pulled the top off again and I have a few questions before I start taking this apart.

It seems to me that the issue I have may be wear in the lever end or lug components. I drove it around for a while before tearing into it and I had to "hunt" for third ...... sometimes it would go right in and other times I would get a false third and it would grind a bit......and then with a bit of fussing would go into gear fine.

I cant see or feel any play in the rods or the detents. Nothing appears to have moved recently. With the top clamped in a large vise it seems to get hung up when trying to go throuugh the shift pattern. I am not sure if this is normal ? or if it is an indicator of wear?

The pin that holds the lever in place has been welded in place so removal for inspection of the lever end has been complicated.

Any suggestions on how best to proceed would be appreciated.

Thank, Jeff

[HanksB3B]

Why not skip this step and go for a T-5.  Seems everything you do to your truck works out fine.  Seems everything your truck does to you doesn't. 

 

Keep at it,

 

Hank 

[Jeff Balazs]

Hank;

I believe doing a T5 on this is not as simple as it would be on a non-fluid drive model. Different bell housing, etc..

 

Besides I am pretty certain this can be fixed to work just fine.....there doesn't seem to be anything at all wrong with the transmisssion itself. I just need some guidance from somebody who has more experience with these trannies than myself.

 

Years ago I had a similar problem with an Austin-Healy I owned. Instead of a top loader it was a sideloader. Anyway there was some slop in the shifter that would cause it to get stuck in first gear occaisionaly. The slop was actually wear on a square end of the selector linkage. It had sort of rounded over and had to built up by welding and then ground square and relieved a bit.

Once done it worked just like it was supposed to.

I don't know if this is a similar problem.....but it may be something as simple as this.

 

Jeff

[DJ194950]

Which pin is welded in?

I don't have any manuel on these trans so I cannot look at a parts breakdown.

 

Are the shifter forks held to the rails with pins or setscrews?

Is the Shifter inself held to the cover with a set pin?

 

That info might help figure where your problem lies.

 

Doug

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Doug;

Here is a scan of the parts book for this transmission.

The pin I was referring to is up at the top and would secure the lever #21-30-02.

The forks are secured with square head screws and are all safety wired.

 

Thanks for your help......I will add some photos tomorrow.

Jeff

[Merle Coggins]

It sounds like someone attempted a "fix" once before if the pin is welded in. You may need to grind off the weld and to what ever it takes to get that pin out so that you can inspect the lever and etc up top.

 

Merle

[Jeff Balazs]

Well I may have found the problem. I got to thinking about anything I did that was different from the way it was before. The only thing I could think of was instead of a paper gasket I used RTV on the top. So I cleaned everything up and made a paper gasket. You wouldn't think something  like that would make a huge difference....... but perhaps it does?

 

And I opened up the access hole in the cab floor so it could just drop straight in. I will need to do a little sheetmetal work to make this auxillary cutout fit back in......but now access is as it should have been all along. The floor is covered with Hushmat so it won't be noticeable.

Just one more difference you get with a fluid drive. Would have been nice if the factory had thought to address this.

 

It feels lik it is going through the gears better now but I won't be able to test it running for a day or two.

 

Jeff

[MBF]

It's been a long time since I had one of these apart, but isn't there a hole or slot in the shift lever pivot ball that the lever pivots on front to back and side to side?  If that was worn oblong, or the pin worn, or the wrong size wouldn't that cause this problem?   I'm thinking that it may not be fully disengaging one set of shift forks before moving to another (i.e. his grinding when going from 2nd to third).  The end of the rod being worn as mentioned by Jeff combined with the worn pin/ball slot on shift lever could be all that is the matter with this.  Just thinking out loud.  Mike

Edited September 30, 2013 by MBFowler

[DJ194950]

After looking at the parts breakdown, I agree the Merle and Mike. That's pretty much what I was trying to post to you when I lost my whole reply! Gave up for the night. I type way to slow. 

 

Doug

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Guy's;

 

You know........ there probably is some wear in these components. Trouble is how do you go about determining how much wear they have? Without engineering drawings or a pile of NOS parts it would be difficult to know how much "corrective" action to take. And there really isn't anything in the shop manual about any of this.

I think a proper repair of something like this can be quite a challenge. Without specific dimensional info........ trying to add material to a worn lever end could get pretty tricky. At the very least it would most likely result in several false assemblies before any positive results could be determined. The same situation probably would repeat itself for a repair to the hole in the lever. And trying to effect a repair to more than one aspect of this at a time would seem to me to be really asking for problems.

 

Hopefully what I have done has is going to work well enough. I don't expect it will be a speedy shifter but it would be nice if it has a fairly positive selection from 2nd into 3rd. With the 3.55 rear end this shift point seems to be right at the sweet spot for acceleration on this truck.

 

Jeff

[DJ194950]

Jeff hope your idea work! End od story.

These old trans were not ever built that tight from the start. Wear to a point of causing big problems have always been pretty obvious to even an untrained eye. We once had an old trans with a worn out groove in the ball end groove that the locator pin slid into. The owner of the co. that owned it cleaned, brazed the groove with some brass, filed it until it slid in an worked well. reinstalled.

Worked fine for years in a forklift.

Don"t know if your up to that, but most of the balls are replaceable. Heat and remove-replace new. VPW ?? that's getting ahead of this but---. We'll see first.

Doug

[Dave72dt]

Unless it was a thick paper gasket, I doubt if that's  your problem.  I'm thinking more along the line of a twisted fork from reinstalling the lid.  You did say it needed to be cocked a bit originally to get it to go.

[Jeff Balazs]

Mo' betta. I am not exactly sure what I did that made the difference but now it is as it should be.   Yeah!

 

I really think that the problem I had was due to way the top had to be jockeyed around the rear section of the cab floor because of the fluid drive. I know Dodge built many of these FD trucks. It is hard to believe that they did not see fit to provide a removable floor section to allow for easier removal and install. I have corrected this on my truck by cutting out about a 2" wide piece of the rear of the floor opening and made it so it can be removed and refitted in a couple of minutes. If any of you are building a Fluid Drive truck I would advise you to make a similar alteration prior to putting your truck back on the road.

 

Jeff

[HanksB3B]

Jeff,

 

Not trying to convince you to not mess with your transmission, but if you change your mind and feel like driving to East LA,  (think my three speed was $168 to rebuild)

 

Laura & Sons 

1623 Compton Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90021
Neighborhood: Downtown(213) 749-9168

 

http://www.laraandsons.net/about-us.html

 

Hank 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2013 by HanksB3B

[Jeff Balazs]

Thanks Hank;

I will keep that in mind. I need to drive it a fair bit before making any further decisions. I am probably going to have to do something about the crankshaft before too long.......so maybe when I deal with that? At this point I just want to get a feel for how this truck is on the road. It is pretty close now......maybe another month.

Jeff