Noise...on revving while engine is at temperature?

[Powerhouse]

Hello all,

 

My engine has a noise upon accelIaration(usually under load) and also at revving. When the engine is cold it isn't there, or at least I can't hear it. Once it's warmed up a bit It is a sort of clacking sound at reving/acceleration.  I have ruled out the clutch by pressing it in while revving and listening then as well.  I am going to do a few test this weekend to see what I can find out.  My engine has a sort of diesel like sound at idle..i am not sure if it supposed to sound like that.  I don't have any others nearby to compare it to anymore.  Maybe I am just gong crazy.

 

My rebuilt engine is a 218 mostly stock guts...just milled head .050

 

I am running a pertronix after not being able to get correct curve from that Langdon HEI thing.  I have a feeling the rod bearing or pins may be worn from accesive advance called for by the HEI.  I sure hope that isn't the case.  I just rebuilt this frikn thing under 2 years ago and have hardly put enough miles on it to warrant any premature wear.  I am not in the dough either so hopefully this will not brake the bank. 

 

Can anyone can give a listen and comment to the follwing video link.

 

 

 

http://ftp.dwtracing.com/Public_DropBox/218/noise.m4v

 

 

 

Thanks all.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Powerhouse

[55 Fargo]

i have a similar bit of clacking sound at idle when the engine is cold in the cars engine a 218 long block  It is quiet after it warms up a bit, i have attributed this to loose and some worn internal components of my tired old engine.

I will be following your thread with interest. I have good oil pressure, and had decent uniform compression at last test about 5 years ago. This is why I take it easy with this engine, keep the speed to 55 mph whenever possible...

[Don Coatney]

I see a lot of smoke out your tailpipe. Has it always done that? What is your timing set at now? Have you done a compression check lately?

[Powerhouse]

the smoke is from the seafoam top engin clean I did.  It doesn't smoke normally. 

 

I will be doing a comp test and pulling some wires to see if the noise stops later.  I hope  can get to it this weekend, My wifes grandma is in the hospital recovering from a stroke and we are going to go over to her house and get it ready for a hospital bed and do a major clean up so it's easy for her.  poor thing. 

[ptwothree]

I'm curious as to why your rebuilt engine would be in need of a dose of Seafoam?  This stuff is for cleaning carbon and other nasties from engines with a lot of miles on them.  The last car I had that was making clacking noises while reving threw a rod. 

 

Btw, did you replace the pistons at the last rebuild?

[Powerhouse]

I WAS running the langdon HEI...which seems to have caused problems due to the incorrect timing curve...which I believe has caused carbon build up and possibly bearing damage.  I WISH I never bought that thing.  PERTRONIX is way better, all though parts are not readily available at the store in most places.  I have heard similar stories regarding the langdon HEI.  TOO much timing advance at the wrong time can and will cause damage. 

[Powerhouse]

Here is a video after checking a few things.  I haven't had time to do any comp tests yet.

 

http://ftp.dwtracing.com/Public_DropBox/218/noise.m4v

Edited February 11, 2013 by Powerhouse

[Dodgeb4ya]

It sounds kinda bad to me.Lower end rattle. JMO.

Bob

[plymouthcranbrook]

When I listened to the first video I thought it sounded more like valves needing adjustment. Now not so sure. Can you post a sound test from near the motor under the hood? Hard to hear it clearly from inside or at the tail.

Edited February 10, 2013 by plymouthcranbrook

[Powerhouse]

I'm curious as to why your rebuilt engine would be in need of a dose of Seafoam?  This stuff is for cleaning carbon and other nasties from engines with a lot of miles on them.  The last car I had that was making clacking noises while reving threw a rod. 

 

Btw, did you replace the pistons at the last rebuild?

 

I replaced everything at the rebuild.  I am guessing I will have to drop the pan an dsee if anythings loose.  Oh boy, such fun.

[ptwothree]

What symptoms did the Langdon create that makes you belive it was the culprit?  I like the Pertronix too but would carry extra parts for an out of town trip. I'Ve had one in my '64 Rambler for 8 yrs. with zero problems.

[Powerhouse]

 the incorrect advance curve with the HEI would cause the psiton to be forced down before/after it should. Resulting in rod bearing wear, wrist pin/bushing wear...and possibly main wear. 

Edited February 11, 2013 by Powerhouse

[ptwothree]

And while it's doing all of this, shouldn't you be hearing a lot of pinging and or knocking.  I'm just saying that an engine under stress usually let's you know.

 

For the price of an oil pan gasket set, you could pull a couple of rod and main caps and see whats what.....

[Powerhouse]

I have heard this noise for a while but not being experienced in an engine going bad I couldn't tell what the noise was.  I am guessing the pinging/knocking term is what I was hearing.  My exhaust seemed to be louder and engine had a rougher idle with the HEI.  With the pertronix...it is much quiter and smoother, allowing me to really hear any noise better. 

 

I have an oil pan gasket and plan on checking down under ASAP.  I haven't had the chance with other things going on...grams in the hospital and not doing so well, wife is sick..and work is busy.  And if I had a dog I am sure it would be having puppies write now too.  hahaha. 

 

I am hoping it's not the HEI that did anything but I have heard of others having similar problems with the advance curve wreaking havoc on the soft metal.

[Powerhouse]

OK.  Did the compression test.  I had to buy a new gauge because I gifted my "antique" one to a friend with an early 30's car.  It loked like it was made at Tiffanys.  hahaha

 

Anyway:

 

STOCK 1947 PLY as per book is anywhere from 6.6 to 7 compression ratio with a 113lb compression rating. 

I took .050 of the head to get 7.5 ratio according to book.  I should have 130-135lb compression rating.

 

As per testing with brand new gauge several times here are the results:

1-155

2-150

3-150

4-150

5-150

6-150

 

I think the compression is fine. 

 

Tommorow I will try and pull the pan and check some things.  If I am not too sick, darn head cold(me, not the motor)

[Dodgeb4ya]

Excellent compression readings and they all are pretty much even too!

[Powerhouse]

I have read that high compression could be a symptom of carbon build up.  I seafoamed the top end 2 times allready.  Could there be that much carbon in there still?  I should have comp tested it before the seafoaming to see if it changed at all.

 

I guess the only way to tell is yank the head.  If I find worn bearings when I drop the pan...I guess I should pull the ehad to check the pin bushings.  Usually if a rod bearing is bad the pin/bushing may be worn as well.  Oh brother.  I hope I don't have to pull this engine.  I CANNOT afford a rebuild AGAIN already.  But enough of this speculating, I better just relax till I pull the pan and check out what's going on down under.  I just had to pull and rebuild the tranny/clutch/flywheel a few months ago.  MAybe I'll just get a stick of dynamite and finish the whole darn car. 

Edited February 13, 2013 by Powerhouse

[Don Coatney]

How is your oil pressure? What is yout timing set at currently?

[Powerhouse]

oil pressure is around 70 at speed cold/hot,  just above 40 at cold idle...and just over 30 once warmed up at idle.

 

Timing is at 3 or so with the pertronix on 12v, which I have been running for less than a month.   I just noticed my 47 ply vacuum advance busted though, a new one is on the way. 

 

I am know hearing a light knock at cold idle too(piston slap?)...it wasn't noticeable before due to the Loudness of the engine when I was running the Lang HEI.  I don't know why it was so much louder. 

Edited February 13, 2013 by Powerhouse

[Don Coatney]

With oil pressure that good I dont think you have a bearing problem. If anything you may have a wrist pin problem. Forum member blueskies had a similar issue with his freshly rebuilt engine using the stovebolt HEI. Too much advance hammered one of his wristpins and cracked the piston if I recall correctly. I will shoot him an e-mail and see if he might chime in here.

[Don Coatney]

E-mail sent

 

You might also pull one plug wire at a time with the engine running to see if the hammer goes away. This will tell you what cylinder to investigate.

[Powerhouse]

Thanks much!  I appreciate it.  I will do the plug wire pulling thing tonight if I can.  Then the pan and head get pulled to fix the problem.  I hope I don't need to do anything to the block.  I will borrow some tools(dial bore gauge, micrometer) from work to do some measuring of the cylinders and such. 

[Joe Flanagan]

I had this problem with a rebuilt flathead. I pulled the plugs one at a time and found that the noise was coming from the number 6 cylinder. I tore the whole engine apart and could find nothing wrong with the wrist pin, which is what I suspected. I had a machinist look the whole thing over and he could find nothing wrong. Even though the wrist pin bushing on #6 looked fine, I had him press in a new one. I reassembled the engine and fired it up and the noise was no longer there. It was (and still is) a real mystery to me. It happened only when the engine was up to temperature and when I revved it. Later on, I developed a noise in the bottom end. That was a dent in my flywheel cover. The teeth on the flywheel were making contact where the metal from the flywheel cover was pushed in, just clipping the metal enough to make a clacking sound. I dropped the flywheel cover, hammered out the dent, and that was the end of that.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Joe Flanagan

[blueskies]

As Don mentioned, I had a similar issue with my flatty.  It was a 218 converted to a 230 with a 230 crank and rods, and was running a vintage Edmunds dual intake with a pair of Holley/Webber carbs, a new Edgy 9:1 aluminum head, Langdon HEI, tube headers, and bored 30 over.

 

At about 5 thousand miles after I did the rebuild, it started a faint ticking sound when it was cold.  I could hear it come and go reving it.  I couldn't figure out where the noise was comming from, even with pulling plug wires one at a time.  I decided to just drive it.  I put another 5k on it, and by that time, the noise was constant, hot or cold.  I still couldn't figure out where it was coming from, even pulled the pan and checked all the bearings, inspected everything I could see from the bottom end and found nothing amiss.  Put a couple more thousand miles on it, and then did the plug wire test again, and it was clearly coming from one cylinder.  I pulled the head and pan, removed that piston, and found that the wrist pin had spun in the rod, and was cracked.  The piston was fine.  Had a new wrist pin put in, and the noise was gone.  Put another 3k on it before selling it without any other issues.

 

I suspect that it was running too much advance with the HEI, but I don't really know...  I bought the rods reconditioned from Vintage Power Wagons, and the one that went south might have been too loose to begin with, causing it to spin in the rod.  The car is still on the road as far as I know. 

 

Side note, when I pulled the head with about 12k miles on it, it had a tremendous amount of carbon build up...

 

Here's a couple of pics of the wrist pin bushing.  If you look close, you can see the crack in the edge of the bushing.

 

Pete

 

[Powerhouse]

Thanks much for explaining what happened to your engine. 

 

I was thinking about making mine a 230 if the crank is messed up.   If I have to grind and polish the dang thing I might as well just get a used 230 crank and have that worked on.  Get some rods/bushings and a flywheel from VPW and get me some more Horses out of the ol gal.