thrashingcows Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 I'm up in the air right now on which tranny to use in ol' Fernando. It has the factory fluid drive in it right now, but I have a complete 3 speed manual attached to the rebuilt replacement motor I bought. Since I just pulled the floor panel and was looking at the fluid drive, I was wondering how these trannies do with a 12V conversion? Is there any problem with the solenoids, and relays? I would like to install the 3 speed manual tranny but also wonder about moving the tranny mount forward. How difficult is this, and once the rivets are removed how do you attach the tranny mount to the frame? Quote
B-Watson Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 I'm up in the air right now on which tranny to use in ol' Fernando. It has the factory fluid drive in it right now, but I have a complete 3 speed manual attached to the rebuilt replacement motor I bought.Since I just pulled the floor panel and was looking at the fluid drive, I was wondering how these trannies do with a 12V conversion? Is there any problem with the solenoids, and relays? I would like to install the 3 speed manual tranny but also wonder about moving the tranny mount forward. How difficult is this, and once the rivets are removed how do you attach the tranny mount to the frame? Fluid Drive does not need electricity - it is just a fluid coupling between the engine and the clutch. Contrary to popular belief, Fluid Drive was not a transmission. Fluid Drive could be attached to either a 3-speed manual transmission (1939 through 1953) or Chrysler's 4-speed semi-automatic (introduced 1941). No idea, though, how well the M-5 will do with 12 volts. Quote
windsor8 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Maybe we're talking about Fluid Drive with Vacamatic shift(on Chrysler) which does have electrical components. I've wonder about 12 volt conversion too. Quote
thrashingcows Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Posted January 31, 2011 Maybe we're talking about Fluid Drive with Vacamatic shift(on Chrysler) which does have electrical components. I've wonder about 12 volt conversion too. My FSM calls the vacuum operated tranny a Simplimatic. The M5 tranny as B-Watson mentioned uses a couple solenoids, and governor control relay etc for the "auto" shift part of the tranny. Quote
55 Fargo Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Can you not use voltage reducers, the governor, and solenoid should not care about polarity . This trans is usually quite reliable and bullet proof, so worth keeping. In my 47 Chrysler Royal Coupe, it supposedly came with a fluid drive and 3 spd, as many Royals did, but along the way, a 3 spd trans and dry clutch has been swapped into place. So I have no fluid drive just a 3 spd trans. I always ponder going back to a FD, as I have 1 out here, but am not sure it would be worth all the work to do it.... Quote
greg g Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 What crossmember are you talking about?? Pictures would be helpful, as with most cars I believe the rear engine mounts via the bellhousig to the cross member and the tranny hangs off the engine, with no other support. Is you car equipped otherwise? If not the cross member remains the same regardless of the trasnmission. Quote
Young Ed Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 The fluid drive bellhousing is much deeper so if you want to switch to a dry clutch setup you have to move the crossmember forward for the shorter bell housing. Quote
55 Fargo Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 The fluid drive bellhousing is much deeper so if you want to switch to a dry clutch setup you have to move the crossmember forward for the shorter bell housing. This is exactly what was done with mine rear cross member moved forward 3-4 inches. Also the clutch release bearing push rod needs to be shortened, other than that, not a whole lot to it, driveshaft seems to extend far enough, either that or the 3 speed trans is a bit longer than an M5 trans, and it balances out. I do know my car witha dry clutch and 3 spd trans has the same driveshaft as the parts car witha FD and M5 semi-auto trans, but I have never done measurments to determine why...... Quote
Young Ed Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Fred in your car I would think they had to swap driveshaft from the donor car. The driveshaft shouldnt stretch that 3-4 inches. Now when we took the gyromatic(m6?) out of a 51 and replaced with an OD 3spd those two trans were within 1/2 inch and we used the same driveshaft. Quote
55 Fargo Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Fred in your car I would think they had to swap driveshaft from the donor car. The driveshaft shouldnt stretch that 3-4 inches. Now when we took the gyromatic(m6?) out of a 51 and replaced with an OD 3spd those two trans were within 1/2 inch and we used the same driveshaft. This is quite possible, but not a guarantee. The donor car was a 1951 Canadian Dodge(re-badged plym), the engine, clutch and trans came out of this car, and possibly the driveshaft too, would the distance from the trans output shaft to the diff yolk on this application, be the same distance on a 47 Chrysler, not sure. I will do some measuring in spring, on the parts car to compare. Quote
thrashingcows Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Posted January 31, 2011 What crossmember are you talking about?? Pictures would be helpful, as with most cars I believe the rear engine mounts via the bellhousig to the cross member and the tranny hangs off the engine, with no other support. Is you car equipped otherwise? If not the cross member remains the same regardless of the trasnmission. Yes I'm making reference to the rear engine/bellhousing mounts. I've measure the distance on the FD and it's about 12.5" from bellhousing/engine mounting flange to center of mounting bolt. The 3spd dry clutch set-up is about 7.25" on the same measurement. Those rivets look formidable to say the least. And I'm not sure how to re-attatch the mount if moved forward. Is the frame thick enough to drill and tap? I would think drilling all the way through to the other side and running long bolts, washers and nuts? But I don't think I would like the look of that. Quote
PatS.... Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 With fluid drive, you still have a regular dry clutch. It's bolted to the "fluid drive" unit which looks just like a torque converter (no torque multiplication though) So, what you need is a steel flywheel to replace the fluid coupling unit. But the Royals came with a 3 speed standard just like the non FD cars had. The FD is bulletproof and trouble free so this conversion is alot of work for no real benefit. Just keep the fluid coupling unit full of fluid and happy motoring Quote
thrashingcows Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Posted January 31, 2011 With fluid drive, you still have a regular dry clutch. It's bolted to the "fluid drive" unit which looks just like a torque converter (no torque multiplication though)So, what you need is a steel flywheel to replace the fluid coupling unit. But the Royals came with a 3 speed standard just like the non FD cars had. The FD is bulletproof and trouble free so this conversion is alot of work for no real benefit. Just keep the fluid coupling unit full of fluid and happy motoring I've done tons of reading through the archives, and all seem to say they are a pretty stout tranny. I have no problem running the M5, BUT need to know if my 12V conversion will cause any problems with the control relay, solenoids, and other 6V items that are relevant to the proper operation of this tranny? Should I just run a shunt? or voltage reducer on these parts? Quote
PatS.... Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) I've done tons of reading through the archives, and all seem to say they are a pretty stout tranny. I have no problem running the M5, BUT need to know if my 12V conversion will cause any problems with the control relay, solenoids, and other 6V items that are relevant to the proper operation of this tranny?Should I just run a shunt? or voltage reducer on these parts? All of the power for the M5/6 comes from the coil. If you switch to 12 volt, you will need a ballast resistor for the ignition to drop that circuit to 6 volts, so the trans will still be getting only 6 volts. I don't think the governor, solenoid and interrupter switch will care if it gets positive or negative ground. Basically, I think the stock wiring and shifting should be fine as is IF you use the ballast resistor ignition. Now, I have never done it, so this is all theory. Edited February 1, 2011 by PatS.... Quote
thrashingcows Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Posted February 1, 2011 All of the power for the M5/6 comes from the coil. If you switch to 12 volt, you will need a ballast resistor for the ignition to drop that circuit to 6 volts, so the trans will still be getting only 6 volts. I don't think the governor, solenoid and interrupter switch will care if it gets positive or negative ground.Basically, I think the stock wiring and shifting should be fine as is IF you use the ballast resistor ignition. Now, I have never done it, so this is all theory. Everyone....I appreciate all your thoughts and comments so far. Another item to consider I guess.... Well I plan on converting the ignition system to 12V as well. I'll be using a complete electronic ignition system from a slant six car, and then converting the dizzy to work on the flathead. So I guess I'll still need to drop the voltage to the ?? If all this is going to cause me a headache, I am more then willing to do a little extra fab work and run the 3 speed dry clutch system. And now that I'm thinking about things....down the road I want to convert to dry clutch 3spd OD, using a mopar A833OD tranny from a 85 dodge pick-up. At that time I will have to move the rear engine mount forward, and possibly fab a true tranny mount as well. So doing the work now might save me a bit down the road...Hmmmm Quote
55 Fargo Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 All of the power for the M5/6 comes from the coil. If you switch to 12 volt, you will need a ballast resistor for the ignition to drop that circuit to 6 volts, so the trans will still be getting only 6 volts. I don't think the governor, solenoid and interrupter switch will care if it gets positive or negative ground.Basically, I think the stock wiring and shifting should be fine as is IF you use the ballast resistor ignition. Now, I have never done it, so this is all theory. Go to Yahoos PWHM 46-48 Chryslers, there are some who have done this change and still retain their stock M/6 trans. You could ask a Gent on there from Winnipeg, his name is Ed Pauch, you can reach Ed, He has and knows how to do this change, from 6+ to 12- Quote
wayfarer Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Everyone....I appreciate all your thoughts and comments so far. Another item to consider I guess.... Well I plan on converting the ignition system to 12V as well. I'll be using a complete electronic ignition system from a slant six car, and then converting the dizzy to work on the flathead. So I guess I'll still need to drop the voltage to the ?? If all this is going to cause me a headache, I am more then willing to do a little extra fab work and run the 3 speed dry clutch system. And now that I'm thinking about things....down the road I want to convert to dry clutch 3spd OD, using a mopar A833OD tranny from a 85 dodge pick-up. At that time I will have to move the rear engine mount forward, and possibly fab a true tranny mount as well. So doing the work now might save me a bit down the road...Hmmmm Ok, you need 12v for the ignition, how about the starter? When you swap to the A833 are you using an adapter for a late small block bell or are you using one of those ca '59 bells that just happen to be close? Obviously, the late smallblock bell will require a 12v starter. Perhaps the easiest way to combine 6v and 12v is to run 2-6 volt batteries in series. If you need adapter info let me know. Gary Quote
55 Fargo Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Everyone....I appreciate all your thoughts and comments so far. Another item to consider I guess.... Well I plan on converting the ignition system to 12V as well. I'll be using a complete electronic ignition system from a slant six car, and then converting the dizzy to work on the flathead. So I guess I'll still need to drop the voltage to the ?? If all this is going to cause me a headache, I am more then willing to do a little extra fab work and run the 3 speed dry clutch system. And now that I'm thinking about things....down the road I want to convert to dry clutch 3spd OD, using a mopar A833OD tranny from a 85 dodge pick-up. At that time I will have to move the rear engine mount forward, and possibly fab a true tranny mount as well. So doing the work now might save me a bit down the road...Hmmmm Okay, so you want to make this change now, the slant 6 electronic ignition is a good choice, with some modification to the dizzy, Ed Pauch of Winnipeg has done this very thing.You will still need voltage reducers, for the clock, fan blower, wiper motor, radio must have + grnd. The horn, starter, can be supplied with 12 volts, you will need an alternator, or a 1956 and later 12 volt genny and voltage reg. Is your current engine a 25 inch long block Mopar flattie, if so, here is what you can do for a bell housing. Any Canadian Chrysler, Desoto, Plym, or Dodge that used a dry clutch, will have the clutch housing you need, as in Canada, all L head 6s were long blocks with the 8 bolt cranks. Beccuase of this the flywheel, clutch and clutch housing will bolt up, I would verify this all first however. You will need to move the rear cross clutch housing cross member forward to accomodate the now shorter clutch housing, the throw out bearing rod will need to be shortened also. If you could get a Canadian 218 ci and dry clutch and 3 spd trans from say a late 40s to early 50s Plym, you should be in business. This can be done, as my 47 Chrysler infact has a 1951 Plym clutch housing and 3 spd trans. Robert KB has a 251 mated to his dry clutch housing and 3 spd trans that originally was equipped witha 25 inch 218. So good luck, hope my info was useful Edited February 1, 2011 by Rockwood Quote
thrashingcows Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Posted February 1, 2011 Thanks again for the great info guys.... Since the original 251 in Ol' Fernando is toast.....Seems to be missing a couple things.... I have since picked up a completely rebuilt 228cu-in 25" motor and 3 spd dry clutch set-up. It was rebuilt and only run for break-in and then around the block a few times then the guy decided to "street rod" his 47 Canadian Plymouth. The motor is from a 54 Dodge, and has the 3spd dry clutch system already has a new clutch/plate and throw-out bearing. So I don't need anything really other then to move the bellhousing/rear engine mount forward, shorten the clutch rod, and of course lengthen the drive shaft. Quote
thrashingcows Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Posted February 1, 2011 Ok, you need 12v for the ignition, how about the starter? When you swap to the A833 are you using an adapter for a late small block bell or are you using one of those ca '59 bells that just happen to be close? Obviously, the late smallblock bell will require a 12v starter.Perhaps the easiest way to combine 6v and 12v is to run 2-6 volt batteries in series. If you need adapter info let me know. Gary I had not thought that far ahead. Please PM me with info about your adapters. When doing the A833OD swap, going with a small block dodge bellhousing and starter would be preferable for me. Quote
55 Fargo Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Hi TC, took a few pics, of my rear engine cross member, but the 2 pics are not very good. I need to have the car in the air to really get detailed photos of the changes that were made. The rear cross member, must have been cut and welded to size, then re-mounted forward to accomodate the shorter clutch housing and mounts. It really does not seem complicated, and should not be that big of a deal to create. I will ask My Uncle, who did this alteration, but He is older, and has forgotten much of what he did on this car over 25 years ago already. Here are the 2 pics Quote
thrashingcows Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Posted February 12, 2011 Thanks for the pics Fred....I think I can see where the cut was made to shorten the mount. I assume the bolts are just threaded into the frame? Great that you got the car from your uncle, and that it's been in the family for such a long time. Love it when there are family ties to the cars. Quote
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