Clutch Problem

[HanksB3B]

When my truck was being rebuilt I did something stupid.

I had a brand new pressure plate so I threw out the old one (I never do that!)

Well it turns out the "new" one was the "wrong" one and so Martin took the iniative to shorten the three arms with an air grinder so that the clutch worked...well I'd have to say now...sort of worked.

Symptom: Mostly when cold, when the put into gear and the clutch is released it sounds like a "Neighing Horse" kinda like "Woa Nelly". The truck runs fine, climbs hills and in general the clutch is very strong but the noise can be annoying for the first 5 or 10 minutes.

Possibilities:

1. The make-due pressure plate

2. Unmentioned up to now, When I compared the new throwout bearing to the old one, the new one looked anemic even though I got it along with my new clutch plate from a reputable online source. I debated whether to use the old one but caved in and went with the new one.

Thoughts:

I'm thinking do-over. New pressure plate, clutch and throwout bearing. I'm hoping no damage has been done to either the trasmission shaft or the flywheel.

The steel pan at the bottom of the bell housing can be removed to get a look at the entire clutch if I remember correctly. I'm set to do that today.

Please let me know what you think. I could use some help on this one.

Thanks,

Hank

Edited April 7, 2010 by HanksB3B

[MBF]

Was the throwout bearing you installed American made? My local NAPA dealer advised against using the "overseas" versions due to numerous problems they've had with them in the past. Are you sure that you put the disc in facing the correct way? I'd be replacing all three pcs (pressure plate, disk, and bearing) with the correct American made ones for the vehicle. Mike

[Young Ed]

Hank which parts do you need? I just took an 11in clutch off an engine that I dont think I'll be using.

[HanksB3B]

If my 51 B3B is the 10" or 11" unit. Ed it would be the correct pressure plate that would help me out.

Hank

Edited March 29, 2010 by HanksB3B

[HanksB3B]

Was the throwout bearing you installed American made? My local NAPA dealer advised against using the "overseas" versions due to numerous problems they've had with them in the past. Are you sure that you put the disc in facing the correct way? I'd be replacing all three pcs (pressure plate, disk, and bearing) with the correct American made ones for the vehicle. Mike

Came from the East Coast, Ma. It just looked and weighed less that the old one. The old one seemed to work fine. What type of problems did you hear about the overseas ones? In your estimation, who would have the correct parts at the best price?

Think I'll get outside and drop the cover plate on this beautiful CA day. My mom says it's raining and cold back East.

I'm NOT sure I put the disc in the correct way. What do I look for?

Thanks,

Hank

Edited March 29, 2010 by HanksB3B

[Dave72dt]

You want to be looking at the center of the disc. Usually there is a spring dampener around the center of the splined hub. That dampener is usually towards the pressure plate. Otherwise it may be hitting on the flywheel mounting bolts. That noise is usually a throwout brg and occasionaly a pilot brg.

Let uas know what you find. Good Luck.

Dave

[Young Ed]

If my 51 B3B is the 10" or 11" unit. Ed it would be the correct pressure plate that would help me out.

Hank

I've got the entire setup I just removed from a pilothouse engine. I think its around a 51 engine but I'd have to ask Merle for sure.

[pflaming]

Been following this thread, should be putting the tranny to the engine end of the week.

The springs in the clutch compression springs are a nice clean red color, the clutch plate is nice and clean and shows little wear, so I am going to put it back and fix what doesn't work as the problem(s) appear.

Looked at the e-brake band. It is not worn out but it has a THICK glaze of grease on it. Question: Does grease/oil naturally build up on the e-brake lining or is this a sign of something that needs to be replaced? The tranny was not unusually dirty.

[HanksB3B]

The Rear Transmission Seal is a Real B#_*h and worth deep consideration. It will leak and soak your E-brake lining. I still have one of the old type (heavy metal housing and I think leather, which I still believe in. It was the correct part number but would not fit and this was not my opinion, but the opinion of Mr Lara who rebuilt my transmission. Judging by the look of the place he has been in business since 1908 and must have every type of bearing press ever invented. He told me the one I supplied to him would not work and installed the newer type, you know the thin steel with the spring around a polyurethane rubber seal. Well it drips (which I think is the default value for our trucks). It looks like I'll be dropping my trans sometime in the near future I think I'll give re-replacing the seal some consideration.

I guess what I'm saying is do your homework on this item. Find original part numbers, cross reference and even compare what the different seal manufacturers are supplying, unless you like drip pans which I just bought two of, about an hour ago.

Hank

P.S. Tip of the Day "Don't buy plastic drip pans, by galvanized ones"

Been following this thread, should be putting the tranny to the engine end of the week.

The springs in the clutch compression springs are a nice clean red color, the clutch plate is nice and clean and shows little wear, so I am going to put it back and fix what doesn't work as the problem(s) appear.

Looked at the e-brake band. It is not worn out but it has a THICK glaze of grease on it. Question: Does grease/oil naturally build up on the e-brake lining or is this a sign of something that needs to be replaced? The tranny was not unusually dirty.

[Young Ed]

Hank does your pinion have a groove worn in it? If so it'll never not leak. You can put a speedy sleeve over the pinion to fix the sealing surface

[HanksB3B]

Ask Merle what he did for his birthday too!

Hank

I've got the entire setup I just removed from a pilothouse engine. I think its around a 51 engine but I'd have to ask Merle for sure.

[HanksB3B]

(and I'll check) If I do not have a groove worn in the pinion I have a chance to have a rear seal that does not leak if I use a speedy sleeve. That would be good. Jus how does a speedy sleeve install? do you need a press?

Thanks,

Hank

Hank does your pinion have a groove worn in it? If so it'll never not leak. You can put a speedy sleeve over the pinion to fix the sealing surface

[Young Ed]

If you have a groove you need a sleeve. If not you should be ok. I've yet to see one without a groove.

[HanksB3B]

you can't really see much other than:

1. There is a pressure plate

2. There is a throwout bearing

3. There was no metallic flakes or disk material on the bottom of the pan

4. There seemed to be a tapered look how the T.O.bearing seemed to seated.

My friend Kent across the street listened to it and said the following:

A.) When you knew the pressure plate was the wrong one you should have stopped and made sure the correct one was installed and not settled for Martin volunteering the file down the fingers (I agree)

B.) Your clutch is probably o.k. so just replace the pressure plate and T.O. bearing and you'll probably be o.k. (I'd like to agree with this opinion), but I'd like to know what is the general consensus here on the forum.

Thanks,

Hank

[HanksB3B]

but I sure do have a drip. Renders the E-brake all but useless.

Thanks for the tip,

Hank

If you have a groove you need a sleeve. If not you should be ok. I've yet to see one without a groove.

[pflaming]

Hank: Took a first close look at the tranny. The e-brake drum is held on the shaft with a cotter-pin through it. Looks as if I will need an air impact hammer to remove the nut. Question. Is the 'faulty' seal in question then the first one I come to? This is a three speed tranny.

Real dumb question: I have a four speed tranny also. Are the seals the same?

[HanksB3B]

but I'm in for the day, cooking dinner for my working wife that's twelve years my junior. (Sort of a "Reg" joke)

Hank

Hank: Took a first close look at the tranny. The e-brake drum is held on the shaft with a cotter-pin through it. Looks as if I will need an air impact hammer to remove the nut. Question. Is the 'faulty' seal in question then the first one I come to? This is a three speed tranny.

Real dumb question: I have a four speed tranny also. Are the seals the same?

[MBF]

For the e brake band-if its soaked in gear oil, you can throw it in a parts washer to get the surface stuff off of it once you get the rear seal replaced (I've got to do that job too). Depending on how much "meat" is left on the lining it may be smart to have it relined since it may chatter if used in an emergency stop. Once they get oil on them their hard to get clean, and its probably asbestos, so you may want to have it relined with a newer material. If you're going to reline it-leave the oil on it-that will keep the particles from flying off it, or put it in a plastic bag and seal it up. Mike

[Merle Coggins]

I've got the entire setup I just removed from a pilothouse engine. I think its around a 51 engine but I'd have to ask Merle for sure.

Engine is out of a B3C with a 4 speed

Ask Merle what he did for his birthday too!

Hank

Nothing exciting. I put in a normal day's work... Drove up to Green Bay to do a training session with our sales staff... Had lunch... Drove back home... Now I'm relaxing, reading up on the forum, and watching 24.

Merle

[HanksB3B]

Replay:

I had what I thought was a NOS pressure plate so I threw the old one out (which as a habit, I never do) Well duh!, it turns out the fingers are too long and when depressed they touch the transmission shaft. Someone in the yard says he can fix it and grinds the fingers down so that they clear the pinion and the clutch operates. When I was installing the transmission, new clutch plate and throw out bearing I noticed that the new throw out bearing didn’t look as beefy as the old one (I have a spare used one also). I debated whether to use the used one or the new slightly anemic new one and decided new was better. I now question this decision and wonder where do I go from here?

Option 1. Replace Pressure Plate Clutch and Throw Out Bearing (the T.O. bearing would probably be the same as the new one I installed). Someone on the forum said there was trouble with some overseas parts. I don’t know where Gary’s source is from or whether they are USA made. (most expensive and complete)

Option 2. Replace the pressure plate and T.O. bearing (same T.O. problem as above). (mid price solution)

Option 3. Replace the anemic throw out bearing with what appears to be a good hardly worn used original made in the good ol' USA T.O. bearing. This solution has the most risk because it could require re-doing it again with either option 1 or 2 above. This solution has the most reward also because if I just replace the throw out bearing there is no cost involved other that my time and I work cheap. It also seems to be the best solution because suppose the pressure plate is not a problem and it's just the T.O. bearing.

The only way to tell if the problem is the T.O. bearing it to replace the anemic looking one with an original part.

Questions:

A.) What would you do?

B.) What should I look for in making a determination as to the condition of the used original throw out bearing andwhether it is a candidate for re-use?

As always, I appreciate the help!

Hank

[grey beard]

Reading this thread, i have a few thoughts . . . if your clutch disc is in backwards, it would not release. Ask me how I know . . .

You may profit from a little study of the clutch adjustment set screw/jamb nuts arrangement on the end of your clutch cross shaft. The clutch pedal can pivot freely on the cross shaft. It is the small dog with the two set screws on the very outboard part of the cross shaft that is pinned to the shaft with a woodruff key. Moving the two set screws front or back in concert together is what gives you the proper pedal 'free play" at the top of the pedal stroke. You want at least one inch of feee play at the top of the clutch pedal before the clutch forks come into contact with the throw-out bearing. Less than this will tend to keep the throw-out bearing spinning constantly - which it was NOT made to do. Too much play in the pedal will cause it to raie or grind when you attempt to shift from neutral into first or reverse, sitting still. Make sure it is adjusted correctly before you look for other problems.

If your clutch is making noise only on engagement, you may have some other issue going on. The fact that someone dressed down the pressure plate fingers to get it to fit makes me wonder if those fingers just might be hitting something on the throwout bearing retainer casting. A real careful look at the parts book stackup and then a real careful look up at the throw-out bearing with a good light mignt show you what is happening, especially if you have someone depress the clutch while you are looking inside there - engine off, of course. Look for any interference between the pressure plate fingers and anything else they should not touch.

The chief FIRST rule of diagnosing anythong mechanical is to alway do the simplest things first. It usually works best in the long run.

Post back and let us know what you find. Long distance guessers are only as good as the long distance guessee's feedback, 'er sumpin' like that there . . .

Good Luck

[HanksB3B]

Thanks for helping. I now know something that I didn't know. Your advice will be carefully cut/paste into a word doc for study. Edited: I do know about the clutch pedal adjustment)

"The fact that someone dressed down the pressure plate fingers to get it to fit makes me wonder if those fingers just might be hitting something on the throwout bearing retainer casting."

I'm partial to this theory and will re-visit how and what I installed. I'm also now able to do a more careful job now that my truck is on home turf and not at a repair yard where I was able to work on weekends with Pit Bulls and Rottweiler's crawling under the truck with me during the restoration.

Good Advice, Thanks, but I think I'll have more questions.

Hank

Edited April 2, 2010 by HanksB3B

[HanksB3B]

You know you are in the country: "It's clean dirt".

You know you are in the city: "It's pure filth".

The poor little guy all chained up and dirty was rescued from a neglectful owner. They took him into the yard and no one knew just what to expect from him so they kept him chained up for a few days. The son of the owner gave him a bath that weekend and slowly everyone started to feel more comfortable around him. I brought him and the other dogs (can't find a picture of the Rottweiler) real beef dog bones. After that, they were my best friends. After I returned to the yard with my truck all painted and together, that little pit bull ran up to me tail wagging...and pissed all over my new Michelins...well almost...(we stopped him in time) but I do think he tried to mark his territory..or wanted me to come back.

Hank

[Merle Coggins]

From your initial post you said;

Well it turns out the "new" one was the "wrong" one and so Martin took the iniative to shorten the three arms with an air grinder so that the clutch worked...well I'd have to say now...sort of worked.

Sympton: Mostly when cold, when the put into gear and the clutch is released it sounds like a "Neighing Horse" kinda like "Woa Nelly".

If the noise only happens when in gear with the pedal depressed I would venture a SWAG (Scientific Wild @$$ Guess) that the fingers are contacting the input shaft. If in neutral it would be allowed to spin with the clutch and not create the noise. But when in gear the input shaft is connected to the output. If sitting still the shaft is also stopped and the clutch fingers are rubbing as they spin around the shaft. This could create a squealing/howling type noise.

You could either try to grind the fingers down some more and continue to use the improper, now cobbled, clutch or you could find a correct replacement and do it right. (my opinion... you asked)

I believe the clutch is still on the engine that came out of my parts truck with a 3 speed. Or Ed says he would sell the clutch off of the engine I sold to him, which had a 4 speed. I believe Ed said his is an 11" clutch. I'd have to measure the one I have but I would guess that it's a 10 incher.

Merle

[Young Ed]

Yup its still for sale. PM me