Need to pull a motor

[jmooner3]

Hey guys - Great advice from the forum got that offending piston out. Dropped the pan (Thanks for the tip Joel). Jacked up the frame, lifted the engine about and inch, pulled the draglink, and the pan slithered out. Popped off the #6 rod cap and rolled the crank down a bit. progressive persuation on the stuck cylinder. tapping to all out pounding with a 3lb sledge. it moved a bit down, wirebushed the scale out of the cyl and crawled under with a 3/4 inch black iron pipe and my new favorite sledge. got the piston to the top, my boy crawled under and pounded up while I grabbed the piston...We-Win!

Check the pix, this piston was plenty rusted. I lightly honed the cyl and there is still pitting.... The question is what next...

If I was looking to make a race car I'd have pulled the engine already for a full boring and overhaul. My goal still remains, get enough compression to get this thing running. Should I hone a bit more - just re-assemble the one piston or pull the other 5 and do rings bearings on all 6?

Is a little pitting in a cyl going to be a show stopper? Again I'm trying to avoid a big spend and do the "right" things to get this truck running wihtout breaking the bank. If I have to hone a bunch more on the one cyl could I go oversized rings on just one cyl??? I'm going to borrow a bore mic to measure the cylindars this week, I'll know what the taper is and how different they really are then.

Any advice here is welcome.

Also stuck a screwdriver into the water dist holes, there is about 2 inches of sludge at the bottom! Next stop -scoop and flush then repeat...

[JoelOkie]

Jay, glad to see you making progress. Dang sure looks like you have some good help, too. Those are nice looking boys. My son is 34 yrs old, (and about the size of Mr. Don Coatney), and we got to do quite a few things together as he was growing up, but he is pretty busy with work and his own interests now, so you are doing right to spend as much time as you can with them, while you can. I know I miss having a boy trailing around asking questions, and getting greasy along side.

I don't know what to tell you about your cylinder bores, but you will get some good advice from plenty of guys that know it bottom to top, no doubt. I re-built a 4 cylinder FarmAll A model once that had been locked in every cylinder and had some serious pitting in the cylinder sleeves, and although I could have re-sleeved it, I didn't really have the money to spend, so I honed them good and re-ringed the pistons, put it back together, and it ran ok for what I used it for, but I didn't get on it and drive it up and down the road, either.

I am not sure what all it entails, but there are portable re-bore machines that I suppose a guy might be able to rent, but if you are in the #6 hole I don't know if you would have room to set the borer that close to the firewall, so you would probably have to pull the block out any way, so you might be just as well to take it and have it bored at that point.

I also don't know about ever being able to hone out enough for oversized rings, as how would you be able to keep the grind the same from top to bottom? Sure you will be able tell more when you mic the bore. I hope you can go ahead with what works for you just now, and get the truck on the road. Another option you might look into if this is going to run into more than you want to spend, is looking for a good used engine that already runs. I have seen one recently, (I think it was in New York), for $250.00. If you find one that can be started so you can hear it, and ckeck the compression, ect., or buy one from someone you have confidence in, it might be a fairly in-expensive, and quick solution.

Good Luck, Joel

Edited November 29, 2009 by JoelOkie
spelling

[Young Ed]

I helped Dad do a similar rebuild on his 50 2door. The pitting looked way worse then your picture and it ran well around town. I say keep going on your current path.

[jmooner3]

Thanks Ed, Did you and dad do rings and bearings on all cylinders?

I'm at the crossroads of doing all 6 or just the one bad one... Anyone have input ? Any idea what the cost might be for a set of rings and a bearing... (Desoto motor not dodge but should be simillar price) I'm thinking, I've got it appart I might as well "freshen" the whole engine with rings and bearings all the way around. Don Coatney and Dave Erb suggest Terrill Machine out of texas for parts any others suggestions or known pitfalls.

If all else fails, Jim and Joel found me a "new" motor near by! Still want to get this one running but nice to have options...

thanks J

[Young Ed]

J this was just intended as a temp motor to keep the car mobile. I believe we did rings only on that piston and reused all the bearings. This was like 10 years ago so I cant say for sure.

[jmooner3]

Great. thanks for the words of wisdom. I figure I could easily slap new rings on after cleaning up the piston and pop it right back in...While I have the pan off and head off, wondering if it makes sense to do the lot of them at once...Regardless I still need to douch out the 2 inches of sludge in the cooling path...literally stuck a long screwdriver in from the head holes and there is a pile of junk in there. Jake and I will be popping freeze plugs and harvesting "block mud" the next time I have a few hours to play in the dirt.

[JoelOkie]

After I saw that pic of those boys with the piston , I was sooooo tickled that I had to have my wife look at it too......told her..."don't they look like they just caught a 10 lb. bass" She enjoyed it also. I especially like the little dead pan guy with the pointer. The pic is great. It sure made our day. Joel

[grey beard]

Okay,

Advise is cheap, so take this all with a grain of salt. You are going through this major lagor, and my two cents' worth sez do the job right. When you're done, you'l be glad you did it that way.

1. put a feeler gauge between your top ring and the piston ring groove,while the ring is still on the piston. Any more than .002 side clearance and you need new pistons. They cost about $20 each from Vintage Power Wagon, where I got mine. Do put all new rings in and new timing chain and gears. I'd spend the few extra dollars and roll in new main bearings - just replace them with the same size as you take out - look on the back for size markings. Likely they'll be standards. Ditto with the rod bearings.

When you go back together, make certain your oil holes onthe rid sides all face toward the cam shat - rght side of the engine. Check every bearing with a full width strip of Plastigauge. Take your time and get 'em right.

If youcan wiggle a valve around enough to see any free play when you put one into a guide, the guides are too loose. They can either be knurled or replaced. Either way, they must each be reamed afterwards. If you can measure the suze of your valve stems and let me know, I will lend to you the currect size reamer,so you will not need to get a machine shop involved. Get all your valves out and check the guides, and let me know. While the valvfes are out, trake them to your local machine shop and ask them to lightly dress each valve face - should cost you very little. Then reinstall each ine loosely in the respective guides - after you've fixed the loose ones - and lap them in with some valve grinding compound - not hard to do. once you have a nice contact ring on each one, you are ready to reinstall the valves.

Keep us posted on your progress, and we'll help you througfh the questions that arise. You'll be pleased with the results.

As to price, I put six new pistons in, rings, rod and main bearings, timing set and gaskets for a little less than $700 bukzz, including new freeze plugs, ignition stuff and oil and coolant.

There's only one way to do this stuff - the right way. Short cuts are like anything else that seems too good to be true.

Good Luck

[jmooner3]

Glad to give someone else a chuckle - they keep me in stitches. The little one is Luke and he is a ticket, the older one is Jake, he has been my right hand in this project. Time is tough to come by! I've done some of the work late night while he is sleeping he gets a little ticked at me because he is really into it!

Dave - I'm not yet to the valves or timing - how do you get the valves out? I imagine you need to use a special spring compresion tool? The one I've seen doesnt look like it would fit..is there a special tool, or tricks to get the keepers off? Do valves need to be kept in same guides like rod caps need to stay with rods or can I just yank them all? When you say lap them does that mean to put special abrasive between the valve and seat and spin them in place?

Today was productve in the shop, only a few beers and we got all 6 pistons out , pulled the waterpump, and brought the head to the machine shop to get magnafluxed and machined flat too.

Next is the water distribution, I pulled the water pump and a couplle little melted metal chuncks fell out (looked like little solder balls)the water pump spins smooth, there is no play in the shaft, and all looks ok...is there any need to rebuild or tear down any further? The block is FULL of sludge I hosed out a bunch through the drain hole but want to get into the freeze plugs to get it really clean. I thought freeze plugs were "thin" metal...I pounded with a punch and a chisel, the chisel shattered! I finally drilled a hole and busted a screwdriver trying to pry...Any tricks to get freeze/welsh plugs out?

[Young Ed]

Put a self tapping screw in that hole you drilled and use a claw hammer.

[albolton]

dont forget lots of lithium grease when you are reassembling the bearings....those first dry cranks will kill them

[Don Coatney]

- how do you get the valves out? I imagine you need to use a special spring compresion tool?

This is the valve spring compressor I have. Other types will work also.

I thought freeze plugs were "thin" metal...I pounded with a punch and a chisel, the chisel shattered! I finally drilled a hole and busted a screwdriver trying to pry...Any tricks to get freeze/welsh plugs out?

Use a self tapping screw.

[jmooner3]

Thanks for the tip and for the pictures Don. All of the valves seem tight - no wiggle and the seats are not in bad shape, I'll need to have a closer look tomorrow. The plugs were no match for the screw! Drilled a hole, threaded in a small lag bolt, grabbed it with vise crips and poped them all out. there was sludge 3/4 of the way up both bottom holes! I cut down a small hose and worked it around in there full pressure, then got an idea...I modified my pressure washer and shoved it in the holes...damn the sludge was moving then! A few iterations of brake clean and then pressure washer - The block is sparkling inside! The shop on the other hand looks like I slayed an oil pig despite all the tarps I hung to keep it contained...O well.

Picked up the head from the machine shop today, no cracks and it was way out of true. That would likely explain the water/antifreeze in #6. Next is reassembly. The machine shop said there is excessive play in the wrist pins and the pistons are in rough shape... Looks like I'm shopping again...Pistons, to go with my rings, gasekets etc.. The crank must have been machined once...the rod bearings are .002 over...

My boy is excited(so am I!!!)! Hey were making progress here.

[JoelOkie]

Jay, glad to hear you got those plugs out and your block cleaned out. Did your Desoto engine have a long slotted water distribution tube in a hole behind the water pump? If so, just wondering how hard it was to get out, if you have removed it. I have changed a couple, one in my 48 Plymouth, even though the one that was in it wasn't all that bad, and it was easy enough, but I had a heck of a time with the one in my Dodge truck, which came out in very small pieces. Good thing I did change it , though, as it was totally rotted, and I suspect the engine could have been prone to develope "hot spots" where water might not get back to circulate where it needed if I hadn't. Glad to see you making progress there Jay. I am learning a lot myself from following the various postings on your thread. Joel

[jmooner3]

Great wealth of knowledge here for a newbie like me. I'm learning that this engine has been worked on previously crank has been turned, cyl were honed (prior to the big rust festival in ol' #6 that precipitated the whole learning process). I wonder if they did the dist tube too...Clearly nobody thought to look in the engine through the side plugs, it was chuck full of nasty sludge, whatever the tube was bringing to the back wasn't going anywhere good. I wonder if the radiator is giving up the ghost and all the sludge is her innards? Anyone have thoughts on the waterpump...It is tight and moves freely, do I need to rebuild? If so how? What about starters or generators, I have them off and asside from looking like hell they both work. The starter was no pleasure to remove, so I'm likley going to bring that to the shop for new brushes at least.

The water distribution tube looks to be in good shape(left side looks like a capital D?), I shoved my pressure washer right up in there and it came clean, I can't see any holes from the outside looking in. I didn't know it came out, I'll have to give it a tug and see...Any tricks to getting it out? Cheers!

[JoelOkie]

Great wealth of knowledge here for a newbie like me.

The water distribution tube looks to be in good shape(left side looks like a capital D?), I shoved my pressure washer right up in there and it came clean, I can't see any holes from the outside looking in. I didn't know it came out, I'll have to give it a tug and see...Any tricks to getting it out? Cheers!

Jay, go to http://www40.addr.com/~merc583/mopar/framesets/techtipframeset.html and go down to the water dis tube information. As I have no Desoto engine experience at all I wasn't sure if your cooling setup was the same as the Plymouth/ Dodge I have worked on, that have the water distribution tube. Just didn't want you to miss it, if you do have it.

Some come right out, others take more effort. I think conventional wisdom is that this part of the cooling system should ALWAYS be inspected, and the tube replaced if need be, any time the water pump is off. I know I changed mine in 2 vehicles when I had the water pumps off, and one had probably been changed not so long before, as it came out fairly good, and was in good condition, and probably would have been ok to leave in, but the one in the truck I believe was original to it, rotted completely out in places, and it could have been a bad deal if I hadn't gotten it out and replaced.

I know the starters on these are tough as all get out, and if works at all you can probably just clean it up, replace the brushes, and go with it. I haven't had a generator tested, or rebuilt one in a long time, as I switch to 1 wire 6 volt alternators. The rad I guess depends how bad you think it might be, wether or not you need to take it to a shop and have it serviced. My radiator on my Dodge truck seemed a little greasy/gunky, so I stuck a rag to close the bottom hole and filled with a 50/50 muriatic acid/water solution, let it set a few minutes, flushed hard, then re-peated, then ran water through it a good long time. Don't know if it did it any particular good, but it didn't hurt it, and the truck is sure running plenty cool. I am sure different guys have differents ideas about these issues. Joel

Edited December 4, 2009 by JoelOkie
spelling

[grey beard]

Jay,

Package went out with the mail today for you. Wonderin' how yer comin' with the engine reassembly. What with loose wrist pins and worn pistons, sounds like you really need to consider springing for new pistons. If your cylinder walls are as good as you seem to think, and you put new pistons and rings in her, you'll be pleased with the finished product. Please remember that even with new pistons, you will need to have your machine shop replace those old wrist pin bushings. Many on this forum have ignored these little devils at their peril. They don;t cost much, but they sure are important. And when you put new rings in with old wrist pin bushings, they soon begin to clatter just like loose rod bearings.

Please really take your time going back together with that bottom end. Each rod cap must go onto it's very own rod - they usually have numbers on the sides. Also, each cap notch must match up to each rod notch - notches in the bearing inserts on the back side. Lastly, the rods must go back in with the oil squirt hole facing the cam shaft. Pistons have no front or back - just stagger your ring end gaps around the circumfrence, so that no two of them line up. Do you have a ring installation pliers? They are important to use, so you don't break rings.

Your valves will have no play as long as the springs are in place. Ya gotta' get all the springs out - you'll need a spring compressor like Don showed you in his pic - and then stick each valve back into its own respective guide and see if you have any wiggles. If you don't, you're good to go. If they're loose, let me know and mebby I can send some knurling tools your way for you to use. Let me know.

My water pump has a grease zerk on it. I bought a ube of maine outboard gear lub grease at Wallyworld and grease this fitting from time to time. If your pump does not have visible play on the shaft-to-body, just lube it up and use it again. Glad you got the distribution tube out okay, and cleaned up that water jacket. Can you imagine someone overhauling an engine and letting all that crud in there?

When you pull your engine front cover, expect to find a very loose timing chain. I could nearly lift my own off tbe gears with my fingers. Buy a new chain and gears from Terrell - they sell govt. surplus parts at cheap prices - and your engine will thank you over and over. You will find a small oil tube with an orifice in the end that comes out of the front of the block oil galley, and points down onto the lower gear to lube the chain. It is held in place with one or two screws. Make sure you blow this nozzle out with shop air - it must be open to lube things. My own was plugged solid with sludge - that's why the chain was so loose - the sludge won the battle, and then everything began to wear extra fast.

Hope you can afford to slide new main bearings in there while you've gotcher' pan off and have gone to so much labor already. Do that, and you'll have an almost-new engine for that boy to take his driver's test in, what?

Keep us posted on progress.

Good Luck

[jmooner3]

Dave - THANKS! Going to make some happy little fellers on christmas morning, somhow opening gifts that are old and worn is like a breath of fresh air into this old truck! Whata I owe ya?

Well Dave I liked your idea of "overhauling" in the truck, so much so I was ready to pull the trigger today and order parts............

41 posts ago I started with the question about pulling the engine and my boys and I have learned a ton to date. I have hapily headed down the "overhaul" in the frame route - parts list together and ready to order..These cylindars still have hone marks from previous owner and crank had been machined to 20 under...One could have assumed that the cyls were bored true at the time that work was done. But I noticed only half the valves were flat top and the others were slightly dome shaped:rolleyes: Could this mean that someone only "half baked" this motor? Short story is I couldn't rent a bore guage but the machine shop made a house call to measure up before I went ahead with ordering std. rings.....survey says............over 20 thousanths of taper in my cyls...

Sooooo now 42 posts later I'm back to that question - at the top of this thread........how to pull a motor. What I get so far is it can come out with the clutch and pedals or not. Not sounds good. I see the bolts on the tranny and I see the clearance issues with pedals through brake master and stearing... How tough and how does just the engine come out? Esentially all I need is the block, all sheet metal is off I can get to every inch of the motor and tranny as the truck is about a foot off the ground and in a 16 by 20 space...Best way to finishs this job I started is to get this motor out and to Vermont Engine Service http://vermontengine.com/ (great guys!!!!). Is it hard to leave the trans and flywheel in the truck and pull just the block? IF I don't "need" to pull the whole enchilada why bother...If I do for some reason I'm game....I'm in this far I am NOT backing down now...My daddy didn't raise no quitter and I aint about to show my boy the easy way out. So here is my ploy for help yet again - Oh gods of Mopar, I need your wisdom yet again:o

[Young Ed]

J the trans is only attached at the bellhousing there isnt another brace etc. I think it would be more trouble then its worth to try and leave the trans and flywheel in place if its even possible at all. The trans is quite easily dropped down and out of the way and then you can pull the motor and bellhousing at once. If you wanted to leave the bellhousing in place I think you'd have to remove the clutch and flywheel while it was in the truck.

[pflaming]

I pulled mine out the first time with a hoist from the ceiling with the finders still on. Had to lift VERY high and had to keep readjusting the chain back so the engine would tilt up to get it out. Now with the fenders (dog house) off, I pulled it the second time in about 30 minutes.

It is not that difficult to remove the floor board panels, that gives you ROOM and then the clutch and brake pedals will come MUCH easier. I too, removed the tranny but not the clutch. Good luck.

This is the same engine shown in "It's running!!!". It sat without a head for 20 years! It's running now!

Edited December 11, 2009 by pflaming

[Tony WestOZ]

When you pull your engine front cover, expect to find a very loose timing chain. I could nearly lift my own off tbe gears with my fingers. Buy a new chain and gears

This is very true.

On one engines I just pulled down the chain was that stretched you could set it up dot to dot on the gears and still end up being 1 tooth out.

In checking out the cam timing I found that a stretched chain could retard the cam up to 5 deg.

[jmooner3]

Thanks guys. So it looks like I need to drop the tranny (4 bolts I think) disconnect front mounts (already off here) rear mounts? Does whole mount come with bell? Bolt go in sidways or top to bottom? What to do with steering? Pitman arm is disconnected from crosslink just need to unbolt box and bracket in cab and it's freewilly- does that go up and out after the floor panel is out? what about the master cyl stay or go? Anything else need to move before the engine does? Thanks

[Young Ed]

If I remember correctly its easier to remove the left to right bolts and leave that bracket bolted to the frame. Your rubber mounts are in between that piece you'll leave on the frame so I'd still check it out at some point. Master can stay or go just make sure you unhook it if you leave it.

[pflaming]

I left the motor mount brackets in and connected from the side. It's not difficult, got to tweist the motor mount bracket a bit, but it is on a rubber mount, designed to do just that. Going in with my engine, for the second time, in a day or two. It's not all that difficult and I do it alone. With help, 'a piece of cake'! (Run a tap into the holes while the housing is out!) Enjoy.

[DanOlson]

When I pulled my motor, I unbolted the steering box from the frame and brought it along with the column and steering wheel into the cab and laid it on the floor. The assembly is heavier than I remembered and it caught me by surprise. Be prepared.

Dan