Engine Cooling

[hkestes41]

I had posted above a link to a Tech article on the HAMB for fabing a fan shroud. Here is what I came up with using that method. Will have to fab up a couple of brackets and try and get it installed this weedend. Kind of hard to see in the pictures but it has good smooth compound curves so the air should flow nicely through shroud.

Was really a pretty easy process. I just worked on it several evenings after work, but it is something that could probably be finished in a good solid day even allowing for the curing time for the fiberglass and bondo.

[Powerhouse]

I have heard a few ways to cool it off....

-a secondary radiator...or heater core.

-an electric fan to cool in traffic.

-water wetter or similar additives.

- shroud

-a misting system in front of the radiator...same effect as water bag but hidden. Just use a water jug, universal electric windshield washer pump($15), garden mister ends as used in yard plant irrigation, some hose, a switch...and some creativity. This is effective..and a fun project. One could also use a hand activated or vacuum pump instead of an electric pump. Such hand pumps were used back when model A cars were raced across deserts and such.

Best thing is to clean out those blocks..when I did...I was amazed at the junk that came out.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Powerhouse

[Rodney Bullock]

Mr. Douglas,

I'll bet that if you remove your water pump and pull the water distribution tube, and then knock out the four or five block plugs and flush things out with a garden hose and shop air, you will be amazed at the crud you find coming out of the bottom of your water jacket.

Grey Beard is right about that debri, I had a local old style mechanic do this for me, he removed two freeze plugs and we used a hanger. We pulled these metal strands out of the block. I thought they were left in the block by the factory. he said they form over time. We cleaned most of it and flushed the block. The temp does not go over 170. I can't explain it, it does work. Glad you drove your car James and with the Wife. "Hey Don't suffer alone"

If your motor was rebuilt and all the usual things have been done the radiator could be "beefed" to help with the heat. My motor was rebuilt an d we still found those metal strands in it.

I think your concern is warrented as no one wants their work to go down the drain. Just how much can these all motors take.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Rodney Bullock
spelling

[55 Fargo]

Mr. Douglas,

I'll bet that if you remove your water pump and pull the water distribution tube, and then knock out the four or five block plugs and flush things out with a garden hose and shop air, you will be amazed at the crud you find coming out of the bottom of your water jacket.

Grey Beard is right about that debri, I had a local old style mechanic do this for me, he removed two freeze plugs and we used a hanger. We pulled these metal strands out of the block. I thought they were left in the block by the factory. he said they form over time. We cleaned most of it and flushed the block. The temp does not go over 170. I can't explain it, it does work. Glad you drove your car James and with the Wife. "Hey Don't suffer alone"

If your motor was rebuilt and all the usual things have been done the radiator could be "beefed" to help with the heat. My motor was rebuilt an d we still found those metal strands in it.

I think your concern is warrented as no one wants their work to go down the drain. Just how much can these all motors take.

Rodney this is true, I did the same to my engine, got a lot of chili out.

But there is more to the senario than just a clean block and clear water passages.

The rad, needs to be in real decent shape, waetr pump needs to be verified it is not slipping on the shaft.

A verified T/stat, that opens fully at the correct temp.

Engine timing, this can cause hiher operating temps, especially if the vacuum advance has issues on the dizzy.

Lean buring fuel system, will cause over heating too.

Out side ambient temperatures, wind speed, wind direction.

Airflow across the rad, shrouds, electric pusher fans etc, for slower speeds in town this would help.

Engine load, vehicle load, terrain, speeds etc.

Everything comes into play on these engines cooliong systems on hot days with temps over 90, while driving down a freeway up and down hills..................Fred

[PatS....]

Pat, the engine could have very well been running at 180 to 195 degrees, and most likely had water in the rad, with maybe some water pump conditioner.

They probably ran alcohol based antifreeze in winter, and a 160 t/stat, then either a 180 t/stat and water for summer, at least until Prestone became common.

But hill climbing on hot days in BC with a car load, would no doubt elevate engine temps.......Fred PS love the pic

Fred,

Both my Dad and Uncle ran anti-freeze year round back then as I do today...50-50 mix. Summer and winter t-stat as you said.

Remember, the water pump has a grease nipple...no conditioner needed

James seems to have done everything right, so it's hard to figure what the problem might be.

Short of tearing down the engine to triple check that all the gunk is gone, I can't really think of what he has missed.

If it were me, the least expensive and least drastic solutions are the shroud and the water misting idea.

I think between the two, they would solve a perplexing problem until such time that the engine needs other work done at which time checking the cooling system again would make sense.

[James_Douglas]

Sondra and I took the '47 to see a friend in Clovis, CA which is just outside of Fresno. We then went into Yosemite via Fish Camp, across into Yosemite Valley, then took highway 120 out to the North West.

It was a 100F plus day out on the run through Yosemite. The engine temp went up to about 190F most of the day. We did get stopped in the Valley Floor at one point with someone double parked and inched along at 10 MPH. The engine went to 200 and started moving up just as the traffic cleared and I was able to move air over the thing.

The real test was when we did not head out via El Portal and instead headed out to the NW on highway 120.

I had forgotten how steep that road is. We started up the mountain and the temp went up with it. The engine hit 200F plus a needle width. Call it 204F or there about.

We were very lucky that there was very little traffic on this road (no wonder)and we did not have to stop in any traffic. We did have to pull out a few times to let the speed racers go by. The pull outs on this road are far and few between.

As we climbed I kept hoping that the temperature would cool with altitude before the engine got to the boiling point.

The top of the pass is 6200 feet and water boiling point goes DOWN 1 degree for every 500 above sea level. In theory I was above the boiling point. At 6200 feet the boiling point of water is 200.5F. I do have a bottle of water wetter in the engine and it may have helped as far as boiling point goes.

The car survived as did we---both very hot. It is idling just a tad rough now back home. I will check the plugs to see what they look like. Although the engine is new (5000K), I did use about 1/2 quart of oil over the 500 miles. I did run it very hard up the mountain passes.

I will at some point soon make a fan shroud for slow running and I am going to put on a smaller pulley on the fan/pump.

All in all, I would say the old girl ran OK for her age.

By the way, Sondra and I looked grand pulling up at the Ahwahnee Hotel in the Desoto Suburban loaded with our vintage Oshkosh Chief Luggage. People went nuts like we have just come out of a time machine. Which of course all of us do on this forum!

Best, James

[T120]

Nice photo,I commend you on the trip you 've successfully completed.-Quite remarkable for a 62 year old vehicle.

[TodFitch]

Hwy 120 in or out of Yosemite Valley is a tough road for an older car. Coming out you have the grade up to Crane flat. Going in you have the grade up to Groveland. And where you go up steeply you must also come down with those tiny little drum brakes.

Nowadays I am a wimp and wilt in the heat. I am sure my 1933 would do better in the central valley in summer than I. So my trip to Yosemite in the old car was in early November... Might do it again this year. That is a beautiful time of year and generally few crowds.

[James_Douglas]

Next time I go via El Portal!

[hkestes41]

Finished installing my shroud on Monday just in time to head to the airport. Will need to raise it just a hair as the fan scrubs on the top of the opening when under heavy acceleration. Used some stick on rubber weather strip from Home Depot between the shroud and radiator to seal the gap and prevent rattles.

Seems to work well, car ran noticably cooler to the airport Monday afternoon and Thursday evening. Once I move it up a bit and clean up the top edge where the fan nicked it I will be set.

[garbagestate 44]

When I was a kid back in the 60's on highway trips with the family, overheated cars were a common sight in big traffic jams. The last time I took my 50's Y-block Ford in a parade it was near 100 degrees and I had to run the heater on high to avoid problems. That was part of driving back then.

[55 Fargo]

When I was a kid back in the 60's on highway trips with the family, overheated cars were a common sight in big traffic jams. The last time I took my 50's Y-block Ford in a parade it was near 100 degrees and I had to run the heater on high to avoid problems. That was part of driving back then.

I agree with this, remember as a small boy, this happening in the summer heat

[David Mac]

HK

How did you form the shroud?

Thanks

David Mac

[hkestes41]

David,

Up in post #8 of this thread there is a link to a Tech Post from the HAMB that goes through the steps for making the shroud.

Basically you take 2 pieces of plywood, one the size of your radiator core and one about 1 1/2 inches larger diameter than your fan. Use 4 blocks of wood between the 2 pieces of plywood that space the round piece out far enough to leave about 1/2 inch of your fan blade outside the shroud.

Then start attaching fabric in the center of the round piece of plywood with staples and work out to the edges pulling the fabric tight. Then work aroud the plywood cut to the size of your radiator core and fold the fabric over the edges and staple on the back side. It is important to get a fabric that has some stretch to it so that you can get it pulled tight over the sides and work the wrinkles out. You want it tight enough that the weight of the fiberglass will not make it droop.

Once you have it all stretched around the plywood, mix up some fiberglass resin and brush it on the fabric, then start laying on fiberglass cloth and resin to build up the shroud. You only need to go slightly over the edges on the round part and onto the back side of the core sized part. Once you have as many layers of glass cloth as you want (I did 3) let it set-up.

Then drill a hole in the center of the round plywood and use a jig saw to cut out to the edge in a couple of directions so that you can remove the wood. Do the same on the core sized piece.

I used my dremel to clean up the edges, then sanded it all, put on a coat of bondo, sanded again and painted. I did have to make a modification once I tried to install the shroud as the lower radiator hose would not let the shroud fit all the way to the bottom. So, i just marked around the hose cut a portion of the shroud out to fit around it. Then I found a heavy plastic cup cut it in half, layed it inside the shroud to make a recess and fiber glassed over it. Did a little more clean up and repainted.

There are 2 pieces of aluminum angle that I used to mount it to the radiator supports on either side of the radiator.

Really not all that difficult and if you make sure to take into account the lower hose you could have it done easily in a weekend.

[Normspeed]

That shroud looks great. With the shroud and that 6 blade fan, you are really maximizing your cooling capability.

[sorensen_dk]

James, I just reread the thread about your DeSoto overheating...

I have a '38 with a 251 transplant (not something I would recommend, by the way). Engine was professionally rebuild - now has 20k miles on it. Radiator is original to the '38 and was cleaned many yeas ago. The 251 will idle for any length of time at around 170. Never shows any sign of overheating. If parked after brisk driving the temp wil climb just above 180. When the engine is started the temp immediately falls back to 170 - you can litterary see needle move.

So, if a radiator sized to a 218 engine is sufficient why should you have a cooling problem? Tim Adams did question the radiator rebuild - to me it seems you are curing the symptoms installing a scroud. I should also mention the six blade fan was reduced to four blades as well as reducing the diameter to fit. Outside temp is never above 100 in this part of the world.

Hope you will finally solve the problem - I would suspect the radiator if block is clean and you have the right flow.

Best of luck,

Tom