Finessing The Paint

[randroid]

Gents,

Took advantage of 70 degree weather today to get some more layers of paint scraped off the '48 P-15, and during the time I was scraping and my mind was idle I began pondering just how in the world I would be able to sand all those fidgety compound curves around the windows to make them at least close to the same 2000# I'm currently planning on the rest of the body. I'm thinking that for most of them I'll use rattle cans (I'm going with Rustoleum standard colors) over a sweet job of 600# w\d on the bare metal, then try to get it to maybe 1200# for a second coat. I'll overlap the spray paint with the rolled paint and try to blend them smoothly.

I need cooler and more experienced heads to prevail here, and rip my ideas apart or nudge them where they're weak. I think that if I used small pieces of w\d in hot soapy water they might be flexible-enough to not do too much removal where I don't want it (in my dreams) so the touch up will be minimal. I've got the rear window frame ready and down to bare metal at least 2" outside where the rubber goes, so tomorrow morning I'll find some rattle cans, do a final w\d sanding to remove anything that accumulated during the night, and blast a coat for experimentation. I'll come out of this knowing a lot more about it than I do right now but I want to start with every advantage on my side.

Thanks,

-Randy

A couple post scripts:

Chemical paint removers have been discussed here in the past and a rule of thumb has been that if it's not flammable it won't do the job, and until today I agreed whole heartedly. Last Fall I asked the local automotive paint supplier how he'd remove six coats of old paint and he handed me a can of aircraft paint remover. I finally got to try it today and that stuff works so well it even removed some old Bondo I didn't even know was there. It smells like oink and looks like him too, and under no circumstances would I ever use it indoors, but it isn't flammable. In many spots the paint, primer, and Bondo was removed to expose a shiny steel surface.

The colors I'm going with are Hunter Green for the fenders and sides, with a light green (GM called it Seafoam Green) for the hood, top, and trunk. I'll post pics of the two colors as soon as I get a little applied (again from rattle cans because I'm nowhere ready to do the actual painting except in a few small locations) and I think I'm going to use the pattern used on the "Bluebird Taxi" photo.

Let me know what you think.

[Captain Neon]

Randy, I look forward to seeing the completed project. I am sorry that I had to get outta town before you got a chance to finish your baby.

[Frank Elder]

Rattle can primer and automotive paint do not go together well. Eventually the poor adhesion quality of the primer will cause it to lift from the metal and bring your top coats along with it.

[Joe Flanagan]

Randy,

If I understand correctly, you're painting the car body with Rustoleum rattle cans. I would advise against it (unless it's just temporary to cover the bare metal). In my opinion, the only way to do it is with a quality, professional grade epoxy primer, a high build sandable primer after that, then base coat and clear coat--all good quality paint and all made by the same manufacturer (PPG, House of Kolor, Sikkens, etc.) to eliminate bad reactions due to incompatible products. I don't believe the Rustoleum will hold up or keep its finish. The professional grade paints are designed to adhere well to the surface and to last. Just my opinion. I'd hate to see you throw a lot of time and energy into something that will ultimately disappoint you.

[randroid]

Joe,

I'm planning on rolling the Rustoleum. It has been covered here in the past so I won't reiterate, but it has been demonstrated to be a very hard paint (ergo able to take magnificent shine) and doesn't fade much if at all. The rattle cans are for the wrinkly little parts where it will be difficult to sand, although if I can find a method of sanding that will give consistent smooth results I'll give it a shot.

There is no way in hell I'm going to pay the incredibly inflated prices of automotive paint! I think I could gold plate the damned car for less than those prices if I could build a tank large enough to hold it. Two, three, four hundred dollars per gallon? Those are the prices insurance companies pay just before they jack your rates, and I'm having no part of them.

I want to go with the roller method to stay in tune with everything else I've done on this car, such as manufacturing my own replacement parts when OEM was not available.

I was able to buy every piece of rubber made for the car by Robarts for a total of about $120 (it was a very lucky day) and that's when I got serious about painting the car. I followed several threads on rolling Rustoleum for nearly two years before I decided to go that route, and other than being more labor intensive than spraying because of the sanding involved it has only pluses.

Check into it and draw your own conclusions.

-Randy

[Brendan D25]

Randy, if I am reading your post correctly, you are talking about the places where a roller will not fit. What I have been reading on the "roller job" guys have used foam brushes for the hard to get at places. Good Luck and keep us posted on your progress. Brendan.

[Frank Elder]

Even the roller paint job should have an epoxy primer under it.

[55 Fargo]

Gents,

Took advantage of 70 degree weather today to get some more layers of paint scraped off the '48 P-15, and during the time I was scraping and my mind was idle I began pondering just how in the world I would be able to sand all those fidgety compound curves around the windows to make them at least close to the same 2000# I'm currently planning on the rest of the body. I'm thinking that for most of them I'll use rattle cans (I'm going with Rustoleum standard colors) over a sweet job of 600# w\d on the bare metal, then try to get it to maybe 1200# for a second coat. I'll overlap the spray paint with the rolled paint and try to blend them smoothly.

I need cooler and more experienced heads to prevail here, and rip my ideas apart or nudge them where they're weak. I think that if I used small pieces of w\d in hot soapy water they might be flexible-enough to not do too much removal where I don't want it (in my dreams) so the touch up will be minimal. I've got the rear window frame ready and down to bare metal at least 2" outside where the rubber goes, so tomorrow morning I'll find some rattle cans, do a final w\d sanding to remove anything that accumulated during the night, and blast a coat for experimentation. I'll come out of this knowing a lot more about it than I do right now but I want to start with every advantage on my side.

Thanks,

-Randy

A couple post scripts:

Chemical paint removers have been discussed here in the past and a rule of thumb has been that if it's not flammable it won't do the job, and until today I agreed whole heartedly. Last Fall I asked the local automotive paint supplier how he'd remove six coats of old paint and he handed me a can of aircraft paint remover. I finally got to try it today and that stuff works so well it even removed some old Bondo I didn't even know was there. It smells like oink and looks like him too, and under no circumstances would I ever use it indoors, but it isn't flammable. In many spots the paint, primer, and Bondo was removed to expose a shiny steel surface.

The colors I'm going with are Hunter Green for the fenders and sides, with a light green (GM called it Seafoam Green) for the hood, top, and trunk. I'll post pics of the two colors as soon as I get a little applied (again from rattle cans because I'm nowhere ready to do the actual painting except in a few small locations) and I think I'm going to use the pattern used on the "Bluebird Taxi" photo.

Let me know what you think.

Rustoleum, or XO Rust Paint , mioxing ratio for spraygun,is 8-4-1, with 4 being an enamel reducer, and 1 being a generic gloss hardener.

This will give a nice shine, and will harden up, and be a lot more resistant than either a rattle can version, or straight out of the can.

This is of course if you havea compressor big neough, and can use an HVLP or standaard paintgun.

If not I would employ the roller method, in thin coats, built up to say 6 coats, it will be a nice hard surface and polissh out to a shine.

PS, whevever the paint stripper was on bondo, beware it can mess with it's adhesion, if it penetrates.

Rustoleum ,and Tremclad when fully cured is tough stuff, I have gone over them with fillers, 2 k urethane primers, I have even wiped the primer with lacquer thinner with no adverse reactions...Fred

[55 Fargo]

Rattle can primer and automotive paint do not go together well. Eventually the poor adhesion quality of the primer will cause it to lift from the metal and bring your top coats along with it.

Frankie, not trying to discount your knowledge, but this is not true in my case, I have laid everything over Tremclad (Canadas Rustoleum) oil based primer, from 2 k urethane primers, lacquer based primers, enamel paints mixed with hardners, and reducers, I have even wiped panels down with rags soaked with lacquer based primer/surfacer.

The trick is too have the primer/paint, fully cured about 3 weeks, so if your in a rush, go with catalyzing 2 k products. I generally spray my rusty metal primer, mixed with 40 % enamel reducer, shoot on 3 coats wet-on-wet.

I know a lot of guys who use Rustoleums rusty metal primer on there bare steel, then do there filler work, followed by 2 k build primers, then topcoats, works well. The rusty metal primer has fantastic adhesion, great penetration, good corrosion resitance, and sands very well once fully cured.

The Rustoleum paint is a bit soft, straight form the can, but once you mix it with Acyrlic enamel reducer, and acrylice enamel hardner, it takes on many characteristics of Acrylic enamel, has great shine, great adhesion, lays down very well, and hardners up to a super tough surface.

Heving said this, it is not, I repeatet it is not, a 2 K Urethane topcoat, and will not be as tough, or have the depth, or gloss you get from a BC/CC.

I am only touted mostly my own expereinces, I am not afraid to use these products if applied correctly.............Fred

[55 Fargo]

Randy,

If I understand correctly, you're painting the car body with Rustoleum rattle cans. I would advise against it (unless it's just temporary to cover the bare metal). In my opinion, the only way to do it is with a quality, professional grade epoxy primer, a high build sandable primer after that, then base coat and clear coat--all good quality paint and all made by the same manufacturer (PPG, House of Kolor, Sikkens, etc.) to eliminate bad reactions due to incompatible products. I don't believe the Rustoleum will hold up or keep its finish. The professional grade paints are designed to adhere well to the surface and to last. Just my opinion. I'd hate to see you throw a lot of time and energy into something that will ultimately disappoint you.

Joe, not to discount your opinion or knowledge, and what you are saying is all good stuff.

But you do not have to use all 2 k urethane products to produce a decent result.

I am in your corner with all the above mentioned products are superior to enamel based products, but some guys want to do there paint on the low economy side, and it can be done with half-decent results.

If Randy is planning to do a budget paint-job with Rustoleum or Brihtside marine enamel, it can be done , and if done right can look pretty decent.

It will not have that modern day wetlook or shine or depth of BC/CC, but it will no doubt look closer to the OEM style paint than modern day products, again if done correctly.

I know how the oil based products work, so this only my own opinion, and experiences.

I can tell you this, the rusty metal primer once fully cured, is a fantastic pre-kote base primer, you can lay everything over this, such as all fillers,2 k urethane primers, epoxy primers, lacquer based primer/surfacers, enamel topcoats ,BC/CC.

I think your plan is excellent for your paint, but guys on budget can do other things, that turn out nicely, there is more than 1 way to "skin a cat".................Fred

[Don Coatney]

Fred;

Are you a professional painter? Where did you get all this good information?

[moparjack44]

Try Macho.

Good price, and good paint job, especially when you have done good body work, as it appear you have. The body work makes the paint job.

Jackie

[55 Fargo]

Fred;

Are you a professional painter? Where did you get all this good information?

No Don, I am not a "Pro", at some other things perhaps, but not painting, I originally was given the idea to use the rusty metal primer as a 1st coat base coat on bare clean steel, by our Good Friend Tim Adams.

Tim has successfully employed this method of using the rusty metal primer as his 1st, pre-kote primer for over 25 years, He originally caught onto it's use from a high end Resto-shop in Atlanta.

The Rustoloeum primer, can be applied by roller, or as I and Tim often do, spray it on, but first cut it with automotive enamel reducer, and spray it, or roll it straight out of the can.

Once fully cured this primer can have many products placed on it, with out problems, but let me repeat, ONCE FULLY CURED.

If this was not the case, I would have spoke up with my experience, but so far this stuff works great.

On a bare steel substrate, most will use etching primer, and /or 2 k epoxy primer, then 2 k urethane primer surfacers etc, then topcoats.

I have chosen to skip the etch primer, and epoxy, and used Tremclad primer mixed with enamel reducer, this stuff has great adhesion, fills not bad, and has decent sealing quality. I repeat,IT IS NOT A 2 K CATALYZED URETHANE OR EPOXY PRIMER, THESE PRODUCTS CURE BY CHEMICAL(MOLECULAR CHANGE), enamel primer,lacquer primer, cures by air drying.

I also learned from Tim, and few others, that Tremclad(Canadas Rustoleum), Paints, can be mixed with Automotive reducers, and acrylic enamel hardeners, to produce a farily tough decent enamel topcoat for many items, parts,floors, frames, inner wheel wells, even a paint job.

The only thing is this, as was the case in the old days, this paint is prone to fading quicker, and if left in the elements will need maintenance with polishing/waxing etc.

If a car is kept indoors, when not in use, it would no doubt last longer.

I am not telling anyone to paint there ride with Rustoleum, but if you do, and follow some instructions, you could do a not bad job with it.

The rusty metal primer speakes for itself, a very good product, and I know more than a few guys who use it on this forum.

[Young Ed]

Fred and others. The professional resto shop that restored my dads convert uses rusty metal primer and rustoleum black on all the frames. The fancier stuff Fred mentioned gets used on the bodies.

[Joe Flanagan]

Rockwood,

When you spray your Rustoleum primer, is it straight from the can or do you mix it with reducer and hardener? Also, when you shoot Rustoleum color, is it always with reducer and hardener? Actually, now that we're talking about it, Tim Adams introduced me to this method a few weeks ago when we were talking about spraying my vent window frames, which are black. I was looking for options because the frames are the only things on the car that will need a finished surface that is not green and I didn't want to buy expensive paint that I will use for four very small parts.

I interpreted Randy's post as saying he was spraying straight from the can.

There is a lot of experience on this forum and I'm glad if I can learn from it. I will be painting my car's body with PPG products. But I wouldn't mind trying your method on some of the parts. Where can you find Rustoleum/Tremclad in a can that you can pour and mix? Heck, if there's a way to do a decent, long lasting paint job and do it economically, I'm all for it.

[Joe Flanagan]

Sorry, Rockwood, you answered alot of my questions in your previous post. We were typing at the same time.

[Young Ed]

What I want to know is what do I do with my car for the month or so that my window frames will be off while I'm painting these Wish these were like the 50s cars where the windows stay in place with out the mouldings

[55 Fargo]

Rockwood,

When you spray your Rustoleum primer, is it straight from the can or do you mix it with reducer and hardener? Also, when you shoot Rustoleum color, is it always with reducer and hardener? Actually, now that we're talking about it, Tim Adams introduced me to this method a few weeks ago when we were talking about spraying my vent window frames, which are black. I was looking for options because the frames are the only things on the car that will need a finished surface that is not green and I didn't want to buy expensive paint that I will use for four very small parts.

I interpreted Randy's post as saying he was spraying straight from the can.

There is a lot of experience on this forum and I'm glad if I can learn from it. I will be painting my car's body with PPG products. But I wouldn't mind trying your method on some of the parts. Where can you find Rustoleum/Tremclad in a can that you can pour and mix? Heck, if there's a way to do a decent, long lasting paint job and do it economically, I'm all for it.

Hi Joe, the Rustoleum primer, can be either rolled on directly from the can, if spraying mix with automotive enamel redcucer, say medim speed for temps 65 to 80 degrees, mixing rate is 40 to 50 % reducer to balance of primer, spray on 3 coats, let flash between coats, then let part or panel cure, up to 2 to 3weeks.

On your window parts(Trim), mix your rustoleum black paint, 8-4-1, 8 parts paont, 4 parts reducer, 1 part hardener, such as Evercoats DOI Wetlook Hardener, spray on a tack coat, let flash spray on 2 medium wet coats.

These trim parts you could either primer with Rustoleum Metal rpimer, or primer with your PPG DP 40 epoxy Primer, then topcoat with the Black Rustoleum mix.

PPG products are great, MyUncle has a tinmy country body shop about 200 miles from here, thats the only products he sues are the PPG lines, he won't even use there entry OMNI line....Hope this helped....Fred ps you might want to skip the hardner add edto rustoleum for spraying inner fenders, it might be better to have the paint stay a tad softer in those areas, that will get hid by rocks and gravel and such on the roads

[radioguy7]

Painted with a paint brush with single stage enamel thined down on a 95 degree day in direct sun light, and I used a very fine bristle brush. The heat of the sun a long with using a fine brush allowed the paint to flow right out. Looked great after. This pic was taken a year after it was painted and the truck was never garaged. A testiment that a car or truck can be painted with a brush or a roller with very positive results.

[55 Fargo]

Painted with a paint brush with single stage enamel thined down on a 95 degree day in direct sun light, and I used a very fine bristle brush. The heat of the sun a long with using a fine brush allowed the paint to flow right out. Looked great after. This pic was taken a year after it was painted and the truck was never garaged. A testiment that a car or truck can be painted with a brush or a roller with very positive results.

Amen Brother, thius can be achieved, I have heard Badger brushes are the best for the flow out method of brushing, as long as the paint is thin it will flow out and level nicely.......Fred

[radioguy7]

Painted with a paint brush with single stage enamel thined down on a 95 degree day in direct sun light, and I used a very fine bristle brush. The heat of the sun a long with using a fine brush allowed the paint to flow right out. Looked great after. This pic was taken a year after it was painted and the truck was never garaged. A testiment that a car or truck can be painted with a brush or a roller with very positive results.

Let me try that again

[BobT-47P15]

What I want to know is what do I do with my car for the month or so that my window frames will be off while I'm painting these Wish these were like the 50s cars where the windows stay in place with out the mouldings

Ed, with all the spare stuff you have, don't ya got another pair of

door window frames as temporaries????

[Young Ed]

Bob I don't have any extras of those for the doors for a coupe. I've got a set for a 4dr and 2dr sedan though. My car was missing the rear ones and I bought them out of a junkyard. I believe the front ones are the ones that came with my car. HMMM maybe that junkyard car still has the front moldings.......

[55 Fargo]

Hi all, just had a friends Brother drop by, he paints cars on the side, has a paintbooth at home etc.

He gave man estimate for a paint job on my car, $250.00 for labour, he supplies paper and tape. I supply paint, reducers, and hardener.

If I go this route, I will be buying Dupont Acrylic enamel, in either the Centari or Nason line.

Or I can take my chance at home, I have done a lot of priming, and painting small items, but never a whole car, maybe I should have this more experienced guy with good equipment paint the car. The price seems right.....Fred

[Young Ed]

Fred I'd jump on that deal. Keep going and get your car as smooth as possible and let him spray it.