Saw this over on the POC.... no wonder...

[Frank Elder]

Daimler AG, makes the Smart Car in France and ships it here for $645.00.

It costs more than that to get your domestic from Detroit, face it, we are simply the greediest country on the planet right now.

The Smart Car has gotten the highest crash rating in front and side impacts from the national insurance tests. The rear rating was acceptable, the second highest rating.

The only major Auto Co. without a car in the highest ranking this year was Chrysler! :eek:

[PatS....]

Well, GM chased a customer away today by their greed. I needed a nozzle for the ww washer on my 93 Silverado. Tiny little thing it is. GM wants $35 bucks EACH!!!

I'm not bailing them out singlehandedly, and if the price was reasonable I would have bought a couple.

Went to the Honda dealer next door and got a couple for $10 each...gotta drill two holes in the hood and reroute the hoses, but that's no big deal.

$70 bucks for 85 cents worth of plastic!

I guess they need some fuel for the private jet they took to grovel for some cash. Honda got the $20 instead.

Sad

[blueskies]

Is it purely MPG?

It is more than that, it is also quality. Or maybe perception of quality.

I've been looking into new Jeep Wrangler, and found an off road forum that lists all of the Technical Service Bulletins and Recalls. The new Wrangler ('07-'09) has 51 TSB's and 4 recalls listed.

I have a 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser, and by contrast, there are 12 TSB's and 1 recall for the FJ, for the same time period. My FJ has never been to the shop for any reason other than oil changes in 30,000 miles.

Both of these rigs were brand new models in '07.

Pete

[blueskies]

....Second is warranty....

The jeeps I'm looking at have lifetime drivetrain warranties. Question is, who's lifetime... mine, or Chryslers? Who is going to honor the warrantee when the company is tits up?

Pete

[Captain Neon]

First of all. Quality. Second is warranty. For example: My wife bought a new Kia Spectra in 2002. We have not had that car into the shop yet (about 43' date='000 miles now) for anything except oil changes. Plus, it gets between 36 and 38 MPG on the highway. As for the warranty, it's 100,000 miles or 10 years. And, best of all, the initial cost of the car with the options we have was about $4,000 to $5,000 less than the closest comparable American made car. You don't get any of those things with the American cars.[/quote']

I've driven Kias when I've had to get a rental car, and I know people that own Kias. I have yet to meet any one that likes their Kia. I have never been impressed by the Kias I have driven. I guess they are OK for a disposable car, but I'd just as soon do without the gizmos that sell cars nowadays and build a better car.

Give me hand-crank windows, manual adjust seats, a few climate control knobs (fan speed, heat level, and where I want the air to blow (defrost, face, or feet), and a simple AM/FM/CD-MP3/aux. I keep my cars for a long time, and I have never had a car more trouble-free than my '97 Neon.

I don't want remote adjust mirrors that stick, self-dimming rear view mirror that is too dark at night, under-powered power seats, or a powered antenna. I absolutely hate power windows and power door locks. I don't want keyless remote entry or remote start. I don't want headlights that turn on for me. I'd just as soon pocket that $5K for options I don't want. I absolutely love my '97 Neon, and will probably, when the time comes, replace my wife's '92 Acclaim with a no-frills '96 - '99 Neon.

Besides that, an American-made car is more likely to be designed w/ some one my size in mind than a Kia. I don't like them. I've liked the Volkswagens that I've rented so I am not anti-import, but I don't like Kias.

People buy Kias because they are cheap, and cheap can only get ya so far. I am not impressed by 43K trouble-free miles. My Neon has given me over 100K trouble-free miles. I didn't even have to replace the brake pads and rotors until I reached 100K miles.

[Norm's Coupe]

People buy Kias because they are cheap, and cheap can only get ya so far. I am not impressed by 43K trouble-free miles. My Neon has given me over 100K trouble-free miles. I didn't even have to replace the brake pads and rotors until I reached 100K miles.

Well, would you be impressed by a new car with less than 20 miles and it started to give you transmission and clutch problems? That was a brand new 1985 Tourismo (Plymouth). Took more than a year to finally get that worked out with many days spent at the dealership. One month alone it was in 17 times for the same problem. After that problem was solved it was a leaky radiator with only about 30,000 miles on it. Couldn't repair it because it was plastic, so had to replace that. After that it was the temperature sensor that went bad. Finally traded it in when the clutch started going bad again at about 42,000 miles. That was a mistake too. Traded it in on a new 1987 Reliant. With less than 10,000 miles on it, it died in the middle of a busy intersection as I was trying to make a left hand turn. Had to have it towed into the dealer, wasting a full day of appointments just to replace an emission control valve that killed the engine when it went out (forgot the name of it now). Then that same valve would go out about every 10,000 miles or less all the time I had the car (about 3 1/2 years). Was so bad I use to keep an extra in the glove box at $63 a pop. Then at about 85,000 or 90,000 the head cracked for no reason and the engine needed rebuilding. Traded it in shortly after that on a 90 Caravan. Again, about 65,000 miles and the automatic transmission went out. About 100,000 miles and the car smoked so bad you couldn't see the car behind you. That was a V6 engine. On top of that as you rode down the street the rear hatch would just pop open all of a sudden, without hitting a bump in the road. And, I can't count the times I had to replace those plastic gears in the electric door windows because they would just snap all of a sudden. After that is when I bought my 95 Lumina. They have real motors with real gears for the windows, not those plastic straps like the Caravan did. And, my hatch doesn't pop open. Plus I have over 82,000 on it and never needed to rebuild the transmission.

My wife's 90 Sundance (also purchased new) had premature problems too. Under 14,000 miles, it blew the AC condenser. Then with less than 20,000 miles the front disc rotors rotted away, just to mention a couple of problems. Prior to her Sundance she had an 83 Horizon. The head cracked on that one with only about 20,000 miles. Then at about 42,000 miles it cracked again. She had bought that car before we were married.

So.............because of all that, you couldn't give me a modern Mopar. Not saying I wouldn't take a new one for free. If that happened I'd sell it and buy something else.

So...........you can say what you want about Kia's. At least I'm not spending my life at the dealer getting it fixed all the time. I'm already way ahead of the game when you think about the above mopar's. Maybe you've had good luck with modern Mopar's but we sure haven't. Much better luck with the Lumina van and the Kia. As for room in the Kia. I'm about 6 foot tall and can sit just as comfortable in it as I do my van. There's lots of room in that Kia. Have taken it on several trips of 2,000 miles or more in comfort.

Pete,

Good question about your warranty on the Jeep with Chrysler being in the financial trouble it's in. As far as the Kia warranty goes, I'm not too worried about it. Kia seems to have lots of money. They are building a new plant down Tim Adams way in Georgia. Think it's due to be open sometime next spring or summer (if not already open). That plant is scheduled to employ several thousand good old American auto workers.

P.S. Just remembered a conversation with a guy I sold something to off Craigs list this past summer. When he came to the house to pick it up he was driving a new Dodge Caravan. He asked what kind of MPG I got in my 95 Lumina van. Told him about 27 MPG on the highway. Said his new Dodge van was supposed to get about 25 or 26 MPG on the highway, but only got about 17 MPG driving at 60 MPH. Wasn't too happy to hear my 95 van got better mileage than his new van did. Said when he asked the dealer about it, they just gave him lame excuses. So..........I rest my case on modern Mopar's.

[blueskies]

.....About 100' date='000 miles and the car smoked so bad you couldn't see the car behind you. That was a V6 engine....[/quote']

One of the reasons I'm a bit leary of the new Jeep, it now has the same mini-van engine... They killed the venerable straight six that has been in Jeeps for decades. I've lost count of the Chrysler mini-vans around here that have built-in smoke screens. Seems like every one of them on the road is a wicked oil-burner.

Pete

[Norm's Coupe]

One of the reasons I'm a bit leary of the new Jeep, it now has the same mini-van engine... They killed the venerable straight six that has been in Jeeps for decades. I've lost count of the Chrysler mini-vans around here that have built-in smoke screens. Seems like every one of them on the road is a wicked oil-burner.

Pete

Pete,

Don't want to influence you against the Jeep with the same engine that was in the vans. But a friend of mine that runs an appliance repair business had a late 80's Caravan with engine and transmission problems, then bought about a 93 Caravan (both bought new). The 93 Caravan had the transmission rebuilt twice within 60,000 miles, and of course he had the same smoking problem. Those were both new when he bought them. When he traded the 93 in he went with a 97 Pontiac Venture van. He's still driving it with no problems.

[Captain Neon]

Everything made by an American car-maker from about 1976 to 1987 was juncque. In the small farming community I grew up in, the only time any one bought a new vehicle was when there was no more fix to their current vehicle. Buying a new car was an exercise in disappointment. A lot of people bought two-year-old cars because, "All of the bugs have been worked out."

But by '92, almost everyone had ditched their '80s cars for a new car. I have only heard stories, but it was almost like 1948 when everyone ditched their tired Model As. Most of my high school classmates drove '84 to '86 Escorts and Tempos because they were cheap after being traded-in for new cars. No one started making decent cars again until about 1989. I wouldn't compare cars made in the '80s to late '90s cars. There's a reason why there are so few '80s cars at car shows. We juncqued most of them and cut them up for scrap. Few people liked them enough to keep them.

I've had a '76 Eldo, '78 Pinto, and a '86 Cutlass. After my experiences working in DIY auto parts, I will never buy a Ford Tempo or most GM products. The Pinto was OK, but when it went out at about 65K that was it. MoPars, in comparison to everything else then, were actually some of the better-built American cars for the time.

It was our '90 and '96 Dakotas and my '97 Neon that turned my father from a Ford man to a Chrysler man. He considered Chrysler after comparing my '46 Plymout to his '47 Ford. My dad has liked Neons so much that he has purchased four of them. Nothing really wrong with any of them, he just decided he'd get one that was a different colour. He likes his red '01 Neon. My sister drives a '99 Neon.

I simply don't like Kias, and I don't know any one that LOVES their Kia. They are mediocre at best. No one raves about them as far as day-to-day driving. They are adequate and the price was nice, but nothing really special. The fuel economy is ho-hum when you think about it. Of course, no one has made any great strides in fuel economy or other drive-train improvements for almost a decade. So, instead, they put silly gadgets in the cars like DVD players, rain-sensing wipers, extra cup-holders, more power ports, and 110v A/C electrical plug-ins. I'll not be spending more money for a new car if I can get a low-mileage MoPar from the '90s.

I'm glad that you like your wife's Kia, but I'll take my '97 Neon any time over a new Kia. You may fit just fine at almost 6' tall, but at almost 6'3" and weighing over 260# things are very much different. One of the reasons I don't like to fly any more. In addition to the hassle of airport security, the seats seem to be smaller than when I flew a lot in 2000.

[Norm's Coupe]

Ben,

I'm not almost 6 feet, I am. But...........I'm a thin guy. I really don't need to put the seat in the Kia all the way back to fit nice and comfortable. Now, my son is 6' 7". So he don't fit so good. But then again, he doesn't fit to well in the P15 behind the wheel either. Says the seat doesn't go far enough back and hits his knees on the steering wheel. A few months ago he had my brother in laws 38 Ford coupe in his garage at home to completely rewire it. He wanted to take it for a test drive afterward to make sure everything was working right. However, that's even smaller than the P15. He could not operate the clutch because his knee would stop about half way out when it hit the steering wheel. So.............he could not test drive the car afterward.

Anyway, I do know other people who worked where my wife use to before retiring. After she bought the Kia one of her bosses overheard her telling one of her friends how well she liked it. He then spoke up and said he bought one two years before that just to drive to work and back. Said he liked it so well, he then bought his wife one when she needed a new car. So, you probably don't know that many people who own one. You see lots of them running around the Milwaukee area. My daughter and one of my wife's friends also have a Kia Sportage. My daughter put well over 100,000 miles on hers in just about 3 years with no problems. My wife's friend has had theirs since about 2000 without any problems also. As far as cheap goes, they are less expensive like I said, but not that cheap when you get all the bells and whistles like my wife has on her Spectra GSX.

Last summer while visiting family in Louisville, my niece said she was going to buy one after looking at ours for two years in a row. Don't know if she did or not, but my younger brother just bought one in September because he liked it too. He's close to about 6 foot and weighs in at about 210 lbs. He wasn't that enthused prior to this year. Didn't want no foreign car type of guy. But, he now says he loves the car.

It's just a matter of opinion on what kind of cars people like and their attitude toward one car or another.

[Alexander]

1997 Neon great car! its head gasket problem is probably its only week point

[Norm's Coupe]

Finally remembered the emission part that kept going out, and would kill the engine when it went out on the 87 Reliant I mentioned. Was the MAP Sensor.

[Mr. Belvedere]

The big three's problem started way before the economy started tanking and before gas prices spiked. They have been losing market share for some time now even when truck and SUV sales were good. The imports have steadily chipped away at them for decades by building very reliable fuel efficiant vehicles. They started with small cars, then midsize, then luxury, and finally SUV's and trucks the last of the big three's safe zones. The big three have never made a consistantly good small car and stuck with it, instead they roll out something all new and it usually comes with plenty of bugs and issues that have to be worked out. How long has the corolla been around or the civic? Almost 40 years? Whos fault is it that the big three have given in to rediculous union demands over the years that are now bleeding them dry? Ford and GM at least are building very good quality cars and trucks now for the most part, though still not quite on par with their japanese counterparts. Trouble is you can only burn people on a major purchase like an automobile once maybe twice then they won't even give you the time of day no matter how good your latest product maybe.

[Young Ed]

This stuff makes me pray my 94 dakota lasts an awefully long time. I just hit 176K miles and its been relatively trouble free. My buddies 05 dakota which he doesn't drive much already needs tierod ends at I think 15K miles. Thats the dealers claim I haven't looked at it myself to verify. Mine still has the original outer ones the inners were replaced last winter.

[Norm's Coupe]

This stuff makes me pray my 94 dakota lasts an awefully long time. I just hit 176K miles and its been relatively trouble free. My buddies 05 dakota which he doesn't drive much already needs tierod ends at I think 15K miles. Thats the dealers claim I haven't looked at it myself to verify. Mine still has the original outer ones the inners were replaced last winter.

Ed, as I'm sure you already know, you can't believe everything a dealer tells you that needs to be fixed, regardless if it's a warranty item or out of warranty. That's even more true when you go to one of the tire stores. For example. I did not buy my 95 Lumina van new. It was about a year or so old with a little over 20,000 miles on it when I bought it back in 1996. The original tires were not so great so not long after I took it into a tire dealer for a new set. Was waiting for the tires to be mounted and the service writer told me the installer said I needed a new tie rod on the right side. Said it was loose and should be replaced right away. Told him to forget the tie rod and just put the tires on. I'd take the car to a mechanic to check out the tie rod. Got home and checked myself and I could see nothing wrong with it. Took it into a mechanic and he couldn't either. That tie rod is still on the van and the tires always wears evenly.

As for your Dakota, sounds like you've had good luck with it so far. My next door neighbor bought a Dakota pickup a few years ago (around 2000). He only had it for about 2 or 3 years then got rid of it. Said he was always at the dealer getting something fixed. He then traded it in on a new Ford 150. He's had that truck for at least 4 years now and no problems.

[Young Ed]

Well his dakota is under warranty so I'm sure he'll get it fixed. Its only going to cost him a little time in getting it to the shop and back. I know what you mean about the shops. Last winter when i got tires they told me I needed both upper balljoints and inner tierods and recommended while it was apart to do the lower balljoints too. They wanted like 1200 and said they wouldnt put my new tires on because they didn't want them to get ruined. Well took it apart and only 1 of the uppers was just starting to wear out. That one was the one original to the truck. The others had all been done before. Already had bought the new parts and it was already torn apart so I still replaced all that stuff. Of course doing it myself cost me about 10% of having them do it.

[Captain Neon]

In Missouri, we have vehicle inspection and while no shop has requested to do the repairs that they've dinged me on. As a matter of course, I will not have the shop that inspects my cars do the repairs. Let's just say that it is a lesson learned from Colorado...

[Dennis Hemingway]

Great idea, but if 30 miles on a charge is the best it will do, it's not ready to leave the drawing board.

Better of with a Smart Car...or a tricycle

Yea Pat 30 miles will not get me to the next city or from my house to where I used to work.

Dennis:D

[PatS....]

Our city, for the last 45 yrs, has been designed around the car. It was presumed that everyone would travel by car, so almost nothing is walking distance, and if it is, there are no sidewalks, and you have to cross an 8 lane freeway on a 4 second walk light.

Public transit is fine if you are going downtown, if not, pack a lunch and a sleeping bag.

Going from home to work? Fergit about the bus.

The news yesterday said car sales in Canada went UP a fair bit in October...winter's coming, people need reliable wheels I guess.

[LAKOTA169]

A different Smart Car. Don't care for the music.

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl66122.swf&video_id=4gseTGwppbg&rel=1&showsearch=1&eurl=http%3A//www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php%3Ft%3D140541&iurl=http%3A//i1.ytimg.com/vi/4gseTGwppbg/hqdefault.jpg&sk=ju3N5Hoirg5q4udxFkmWsLw8PJ61qrWTC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=en

[RobertKB]

A different Smart Car. Don't care for the music.

I kinda liked that! Like you, the music leaves me cold. Still lots of gearheads out there but just with different kinds of vehicles.