Changing front engine mount - how do you get at it?????

[n1gzd_plymouth]

I am trying to remove the front engine mount. I have a 230 CI engine (TI0 from 52 Dodge truck). It is installed in my 36 Plymouth coupe with the wrong front engine mount (studs don't line up with holes - I think that later engines had a slightly different front mount).

I have jacked up the engine and I thought it would be easy to just remove the mount but I can't get at the lower two nuts. Is it even possible to do this or do I need to remove the entire engine suport bracket to get at these nuts. Please tell me there is a trick that I had not thought of!!!

If not, it seems that I need to remove the fan/water pump, and timing chain cover and everything else and remove the engine mount support bracket from the frame.

I am changing the mount because the one in my car does not fit and is in bad shape. Also, I think that because of this, the carburetor is flooding the engine because the engine is shaking so much that the needle valve never seats.

Thanks,

Rebecca

[james curl]

The actual front engine mount that bolts solidly to the car frame is secured to the front engine mounted bracket by a lamated rubber strip that has four studs made into it, two up into the engine mounted bracket and two down into the front engine mount. You will have to raise the front of the engine high enough to remove the rubber sandwich to remove the front sheetmetal engine mount.

[greg g]

Loosen the top nuts. put a block under the front of the oil pan and jack it up till the engine raises above the studs, then remove the bottom push the liece up and remove it. If you need to you can loosen the ubolts that secure the plate part to the frame and move the top toward the radiator to ease the removal.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

I am not sure that my engine mount looks what you are describing (or it is not installed correctly because the previous owner tried to re-use the one for the 36 Plymouth instead of using the one for the later engine.

What you are describing is basicly what I am seeing except:

The mount looks like a metal sandwich with rubber in the middle. In the catalog pictures it looks like there are two studs that point up and two studs that point down.

I removed the nut on the studs that are pointing up (actually one of the studs was missing because the hole on the engine side was in the wrong place - earlier engine?).

Then I jacked up against the oil pan (with a block of wood). I got a big gap between the engine and the shock mount but the shock mount is still bolted to the engine support bracket. If I look up at it from below there are what appears to be two stud nuts fastening it down. It looks like I need to remove those nuts so I can lift out the engine mount.

I can't get at the nuts on the bottom side of the engine support brace (or whatever you call it). I am sorry that I am having trouble describing this.

Do I need to start disassembling the front end of my coupe or is there a trick that I have not thought of.

Rebecca

[n1gzd_plymouth]

just to be clear, it is the bottom part (lower two studs) that I am having trouble with, not the top two).

I have seen a picture of this engine mount in the catalog. Here's the problem (second problem). The catalog lists two different ones. The one for the 36 plymouth is different than the one for the 52 Dodge truck (my engine is out of the truck). I think that the space between the upper (and possibly lower) studs is different so I don't yet know which part fits my car because I have a mismatch between engine and chassis. I am sure there is a way to figure it out but I need to get what I have out first so I can measure it. I did determine that the engine side holes are 4.5 inches apart (center to center). I have not yet been able to measure the distance between the holes in my engine support (because I can't get at the holes from below and on the top side the engine mount that I can't remove is still there).

so in short, I have managed to free up the top side of the engine mount because i jacked up the engine, but not the bottom side.

What I am I missing?

Thanks so much. I am really frustrated.

Rebecca

[greg g]

any chance you can post some pictures of your set up??? Have you tried to loosen the large piece from the frame and rockt it forward, with the engine still supported by the jack?

Here is a picture from Don C's photo bucket showing the front engine mount.

The piece that loosk like a horse shoe attaches to the frame. The bottom attachements vary by model and year but are similar in purpose. The metal piece should be removeable (you may need to pull the fan) then you should be able to access the bottom nits on the laminated piece.

To put it back together mount the new laminated piece to the bottom section. then attach it to the engine, then reattach the bottom to the frame by letting the engine down gently.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

yes. that looks like mine. The piece that you are calling a "horseshoe" is what I am calling the lower engine support.

It sounds like you agree that there is no way to remove the engine mount (my name for the rubber part with studs sticking out of it that I am trying to remove) without removing the lower engine support. It sounds like I should be able to un bolt it and slide it forward just enough to get at the nuts on the bottom and that I will have to remove the belt and possibly the fan.

Is it ok for me to jack the engine up by putting a piece of wood under the forward part of the oil pan? I did that once to see that I could lift it.

Do I need to worry about deforming the oil pan (and causing it to leak).

Thanks for the help.

Rebecca

[Normspeed]

When I put the rebuilt 230 in my 53, I had some coolant leaks around the timing cover bolts and I got pretty good at removing the front mount assembly. I pulled the fan and radiator, a pretty quick job, unbolted the horseshoe mount assembly at the frame, lifted the motor a few inches with an engine hoist, unbolted the top nuts on the rubber mount, and leaned the bottom forward and removed the horseshoe and rubber mount as a unit.

You're right, the steel mount changed over the years. I bought a 53 Plymouth motor out of a 50 Plymouth, and that front piece was a nasty bit of welding work blending the 53 and 50 legs.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

how do you lift it with an engine hoist? I could not see a hook or loop on the top of the engine to attach it to.

Are you saying that it is a bad idea to push up on the oil pan (with a block of wood). Would that deform the pan and cause it to leak?

I can probably borrow an engine hoist if it is the only right way to do it.

My car weights a lot less than the trucks (36 coupe).

if the fan is out do I really need to remove anything else (like the radiator)?

I don't think that the radator is easy to remove in my car because the fenders are connected to it. However, the book for my 36 does show how to just remove the radator core in order to access the front of the engine. Perahps I have to do that. I am hoping that with the fan out of the way I will be able to move the engine support brace (whatever you call it) forward.

As far as what rubber mount part will fit my car I am starting to think that it is possible that none of them will fit without modification because the holes on the brace might be from the 36 and the holes on the engine might be from the 52 and they won't match the part. I think that what I am going to have to do is order both of them and hope that one fits. On the other hand, I know that the distance betweent he holes on the engine side needs to be 4.5 inches. that might be enough information to get the parts guy to select which one I need. However, I have not been able to measure the distance between the studs on the bottom piece.

Thanks again. I think that I need to learn how to remove the radator core because I will need it out of the way for other jobs.

Rebecca

[Plymouthy Adams]

you can always use a block of wood under the crank pulley iteslf if you are concerned about damage to the oil pan..I have used this method many times especially in cases where the front cross member would interfere with a frontal lift via oilpan..

[n1gzd_plymouth]

the picture above shows the mount but now I am curious to see more pictures.

Rebecca

[Don Coatney]

Rebecca;

The photo shows the front mount that was used from about 39-40 until

the mid 50's or later. The 4 studs that protude from this mount are

evenly spaced top and bottom. Your front mount may be different.

Follow this link for pictures of a different style.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=11566&highlight=mount

The one in the link says rear mount but it does have part numbers and

perhaps someone can cross reference the numbers.

If you need to remove the radiator there should be 3 bolts per side.

Remove them and the hoses then your radiator should lift straight

up and out. Where in Virginia are you located?

[BobT-47P15]

Here is the rubber piece that goes on top of the horseshoe metal engine

mount.

[Don Coatney]

Here is the rubber piece that goes on top of the horseshoe metal engine

mount.

This picture clearly show the even stud spacing top and bottom. But I am not sure if this is the correct mount for Rebecca's car.

[steveplym]

That should be the correct mount as when I used a motor from a '36 Plymouth in my P-15 a few years back the mounts were the same. It is true though that you have to lift the engine up and lower the bottom "U" bolts on the frame to get it off the motor.

I used a jack under the front of my oil pan. I just put a thick blanket on top of the jack where it touches the oil pan. Didn't have any trouble as I was not moving it up much. I had the same trouble Normspeed had with the bolts. I was just lucky he reminded me to check that on this forum before I put in the radiator and radiator support.

[Don Coatney]

That should be the correct mount as when I used a motor from a '36 Plymouth in my P-15 a few years back the mounts were the same. .

That answers my question. Thanks.

[Andydodge]

A piece of wood, say 2x4x6" long with the 4" wide side against the front area of the sump should be o/k, you only should need to lift the front of the engine 1/2-3/4 of an inch and shouldn't be able to lift more than that if the exhaust, etc is still attached.

[Don Coatney]

I am changing the mount because the one in my car does not fit and is in bad shape. Also, I think that because of this, the carburetor is flooding the engine because the engine is shaking so much that the needle valve never seats.

Thanks,

Rebecca

Rebecca;

Having given some thought to this issue I have doubts that the engine mount is related to your carburetor flooding problem. The reason carburetors used a float and valve (not really a needle valve as a needle valve regulates flow and does not shut it off and turn it back on wheras a float valve does shut liquid flow off and opens to allow flow when the level in the bowl drops) to shut fuel off when the carburetor bowl fills is because it works well (actually better) with vibration. I suspect your carburetor float level is set too high. What the book calls for and what actually works vary from carburetor to carburetor. However as you are into the engine mount replacement complete that and then we will cuss and discuss the carburetor float setting and further address the flooding issues.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Rebecca;

Having given some thought to this issue I have doubts that the engine mount is related to your carburetor flooding problem. The reason carburetors used a float and valve (not really a needle valve as a needle valve regulates flow and does not shut it off and turn it back on wheras a float valve does shut liquid flow off and opens to allow flow when the level in the bowl drops) to shut fuel off when the carburetor bowl fills is because it works well (actually better) with vibration. I suspect your carburetor float level is set too high. What the book calls for and what actually works vary from carburetor to carburetor. However as you are into the engine mount replacement complete that and then we will cuss and discuss the carburetor float setting and further address the flooding issues.

Well, I will of course replace the engine mount first.

My carter carburetor does indeed have a needle valve (I have seen it). It is the type that is mounted horrizontally and the valve seat doubles as the fitting where you screw in the fuel line. I have had it overhauled and the float level should be set correctly (but I will check that too). I will report back what I found one. By the way, on a slightly unrelated note, one guy showed me his willys manual where it said if you have a carburetor flooding problem check the motor mounts.

Rebecca

[n1gzd_plymouth]

That should be the correct mount as when I used a motor from a '36 Plymouth in my P-15 a few years back the mounts were the same. It is true though that you have to lift the engine up and lower the bottom "U" bolts on the frame to get it off the motor.

I used a jack under the front of my oil pan. I just put a thick blanket on top of the jack where it touches the oil pan. Didn't have any trouble as I was not moving it up much. I had the same trouble Normspeed had with the bolts. I was just lucky he reminded me to check that on this forum before I put in the radiator and radiator support.

I have the U shaped motor mount thing from the 36 car (has one bolt hole in it not two like the pictures in this thread). It sounds like one of the two rubber motor mounts that I have to choose from will fit. I just have to measure the distance between the stud holes in the U shaped motor mount before selecting them. I think that you have proven to me that the distance between the stud holes on the engine side is the same for both engines so it is the distance between the holes in the u shaped support piece that will determine which part number I need (Andy Bernbaum has both).

Thanks,

Rebecca

[Lou Earle]

Quote I am changing the mount because the one in my car does not fit and is in bad shape. Also, I think that because of this, the carburetor is flooding the engine because the engine is shaking so much that the needle valve never seats.

I have had cars with the motor mounts not even attached and vibration is not an issue- Plymouth's and A model ford in particular. I strongly suspect the firing order is messed up or the whole ignition system is out of time I have had engines almost shake to pieces when firing order is wrong especially 4 cylinder cars!!!

YO(u are new to this board and thanks for being here we all enjoy are cars and this board- it has helped me out of several messes.

So to you remember the words of my late friend and great mechanic and machinist- If you are are absolutely sure it is a fuel [problem- check your ignition first!!!. If you have a filter on your fuel line and all of a sudden your car starts doing weird things it is usually ignition or clogged fuel filter not the carb.

Hope this helps

Lou

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Thanks. I am of course checking everything. Since the engine mount absolutely needs changing I am getting that over with first.

By the way, the picture above of an engine mount that might be the right one is very helpful. Here is a picture of what I think might be the engine mount that is in the car and you can see from this picture why I keep asking about the spacing between the studs (it looks like this one has a bolt for half of it not a stud). It is either this one or the one posted above (that has the top and bottom studs that line up with each other.

Rebecca

[Don Coatney]

Well, I will of course replace the engine mount first.

My carter carburetor does indeed have a needle valve (I have seen it). It is the type that is mounted horrizontally and the valve seat doubles as the fitting where you screw in the fuel line. I have had it overhauled and the float level should be set correctly (but I will check that too). I will report back what I found one. By the way, on a slightly unrelated note, one guy showed me his willys manual where it said if you have a carburetor flooding problem check the motor mounts.

Rebecca

Rebecca;

Sorry but the float valve is not a needle valve. I know Carter B&B carburetors somewhat well. Here is some interesting reading for you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Needle valve...

Needle valves are usually used in flow metering applications, especially when a constant, calibrated, low flow rate must be maintained for some time, such as the idle fuel flow in a carburetor.

Float valves....

A float valve is a mechanical feedback mechanism that regulates fluid level by using a float to drive an inlet valve so that a higher fluid level will force the valve closed while a lower fluid level will force the valve open. This is an example of negative feedback and of proportional control.

The most common use of a float valve is to control the filling of water in the water tank (Cistern) of a commode (toilet).

This is done by utilizing a Balloon type float valve. Its working is thus:

A ball shaped hollow sphere , made of hardened Rubber or Copper alloy sheet is sealed so that water cannot enter it. This is attached to an arm that in turn is attached to the valve or flap.

The valve or flap controls the opening of the pipe through which water flows into the tank/Cistern

Under Empty condition, valve is fully open and balloon is suspended freely.

As water ingresses into the container, the balloon, on account of trapped air and buoyancy, begins to rise / float on the water surface.

Soon the balloon floats high enough so that the arm attached to the Balloon CLOSES the valve and stops water from flowing in.

Thus when water is filled to a certain level, its inflow is stopped by this arrangement.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

well, I might have my terminology wrong, I was just repeating what it says in my 1936-1942 plymouth service manual on page 124 in the explosion diagram of the carb. It referrs to the needle shaped pointed thing that prevents fuel from comming in as the "float needle", the thing that it seats against (and that at the other end doubles as the fitting where you screw in your fuel line tube) as the "float needle seat". Also, on the next page when it describes disassembly, cleaning and re-assembly it repeatedly referrs to it as a needle valve.

This "needle valve" is situated horrizontally and the tab that is moved by the float pushes on the blunt end of it causing the shaft to slide through a centering tube and push it aginst the seat that matches it's shape thus shutting off the flow of fuel. the only thing that prevents fuel from coming in is the presure of the tab actuated by the float. I was thinking that if the float was bobbing around too much because the engine was shaking terribly(for whatever reason) that this shaft (needle) would bob in and out letting fuel keep squirting in and over fill the bowl.

I will report back what I find after I replace the engine mount and check the other obvious things (such as ignition and such). I have only driven this car once and I am still getting the bugs out of it (mostly things that the previous owner did wrong). I am having fun but I wish I could have driven the car more before winter (new toy, want to play with it before snow and salt).

Thanks for the help. I can see that this will be a very valuable resource.

Rebecca

[greg g]

Coatney must be bored, arguing symantics about stuff like that. The needle and seat are usually referred to as a pair. And are what usually opens and closes the fuel flow into the float chamber of a carburetor. And the design is pretty shake proof. I have had a few cars witn needle valves as part of the jetting. The tapered needle raises or falls based on the position of the throttle. the further opend the thinner the needle remaining in the jet, there by allowing more gas to flow through the jet.

But that said, perhaps if the little retainer clip that holds down the pin upon which the float pivots is missing or incorrectly installed, perhaps the shaking engine could cause the float to move around and there for not close the needle firmly ito its seat.

You mention thay you are chasing gremlins the Previous owner introduced or continued to host.

A good basic trouble shooting go around of the engine and its systems is probably in order after you replace the engine mount. While you are at it you might want to check the condition of the rear motor mounts also, as if they are in poor condition all that shaking will be transfered to the frame.

But here are some things you can do before starting it up again.

Do a basic static timing to assure your distributor is aligned correct;y when #1 cylinder is at TDC of its compression stroke. then with the rotor pointing to the tower for number one, assure you spark plug wires are arranged according to the firing order.

then assure your points are set correctly at the specified gap, and that the small wire connecting the coil terminal on the dist body to the points is in good shape and not unintentially grounding against the body of the distributor. Assure your coil wire is firmly seated and attached into its cap tower. Make sure your spark plugs are gapped properly. and while they are out a compression test can tell you alot about the condition of your engine.

I noticed you are running an alernator. If its 12v, has it been changed to negative ground. If so have the wires on the coil been switched to reflect the change over. You have the old style coil with the terminals on opposite sides of the fire wall. In the stock set up (6V positive ground) the wire from the ign switch would go to the negative pole of the coil and the positive to the distributor, then to ground through the points. The car will still run but this can add to a rough running condition at engine speeds. This can be a pain with your coil set up but you might want to try to switch them with some jumper wires, and there should also be a ballast resistor in the line from the ign, as the old coil is not designed to run on 12V and will soon cook itself running on full voltage. Just noticed in the pics that the box in the trunk say the alt is 6v. If thats the case forget about what I said above, but that being the case the primary cables are too small for a 6 v system. Battery cables to the starter should be at a minimum 1 gauge or 0 if you can find them.

Then check the carb, make sure it is snug on the manifold and the intake manifold to block nuts are snugged up. The idle air screw is set at 1 to one 1/2 half turns open and then go from there.

By the way what's the red hot rod in the other garage stall?? And are your rear shocks missing??