High price of oil and what can we do?

[Captain Neon]

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." --C.S. Lewis

It is obvious that you did not grow up in the '70s or even the early '80s as Mr. Belvedere and I did. I did not live in the '60s when rivers literally caught on fire from the petroleum dumped into them. Just because the government doesn't mandate everything you think that it should does not mean that less individuals put a greater emphasis on being more environmentally conscious. There are more SUVs on the road, but fewer people are using full-size conversion vans to haul their families around. An SUV on average gets 15 mpg; those old coversion vans get about 8 mpg. Sounds like an improvement to me. It is obvious to me that things have gotten better in the last 40 years or so, and the most effective changes have come about by allowing individuals to do the right thing for the right reasons and not by government mandate and fines.

My grandfather worked for many years for his county solid waste disposal department. Do you wanna know where most carefully separated recyclables go? The landfill! Unless there is a real demand for recycled material, it is a waste of a businessman's resources to separate recyclables.

Again, read Atlas Shrugged, and you will see what I am so passionately against.

Well I'm glad you both agree with me. As far as our great strides in conservation goes...I see more SUV's on the road than ever, and I just hired a 17 year old whose household energy bill runs over $2,000 a month...and no she's not growing pot. I recently quit a job where the owner refused to recycle anything, unless the government started paying him to do so (he threatened to fire me if he saw me spending company time seperating trash and recyclables) and the local organic foods market uses 100% incandecent light bulbs.

These same new environmentalists made Jesse James of West Coast Choppers pay a fine when his bikes didn't meet emissions standards, but said publicly that they weren't interested in making him bring bikes into compliance retro-actively, which James' attorneys noted would have been much more costly than the fine. They charge fines to refineries in San Francisco for refusing to retrofit new catalytic converters to their stacks that are far less than the money that it would cost to actually perform the retrofit, and they stand idly be while thousands of gallons of toxic waste are dumped into the bay. They see environmentalism as a revenue source, but I can't see them forgoing the potential money from selling domestic oil on the world market if there wasn't an alterior motive.

As a Nation, we're about as green as the Russian River here in California. Actually, I guess it's more brown really, but I guess I'll just wait for Captain Neon to come on and tell me that I am wrong...

Oh, by the way...I'm experimenting with growing a small amount of corn to produce ethanol. I am fueling my still with burned biomass from other food crops that I have grown. I just want to see if I can make ethanol without using gasoline. I've heard it's impossible.

BTW, never said it was impossible to produce ethanol without using gasoline. My only argument is that the energy input into the process is greater than that available in the output. I can produce a jug of shine in my basement, but it is more cost effective for me to just go and buy a gallon of gasoline at the local convenience store instead. Do you have any idea how many bushels of corn you need to produce enough ethanol to fill a P15? I doubt that you have enough land let alone the space to produce enough ethanol to fuel you for a year.

[crazycasey]

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." --C.S. Lewis

This kinda sounds like they're talking about the church more than the government.

An SUV on average gets 15 mpg; those old coversion vans get about 8 mpg. Sounds like an improvement to me.

On one recent, mostly highway trip I was able to average 28 mpg in my 1962 Ford Falcon with 2-speed auto, fully loaded. I'm lucky if I can get 32 mpg in my 2006 Honda Civic, with the AC off. Granted the Honda cruises at 75 and the Falcon at 55, but still, thats less than a 1 mpg increase in milage per decade...is that the best we can do? And that brings up another problem...early adoption. I went right out and bought a new Civic at the start of all this global warming talk...what an a$$hole I am. I should have just kept driving my old Falcon, which CARB would love to take off of the road to make our air cleaner. Regardless, I consider all my purchases much more carefully now.

Do you wanna know where most carefully separated recyclables go? The landfill! Unless there is a real demand for recycled material, it is a waste of a businessman's resources to separate recyclables.

So there aren't any government mandates that make companies produce goods from post consumer product (that I know of)...and left to their own devices, it doesn't seem like that many people choose to buy the brown recycled paper towels over the nice shiny new white ones, or for that matter use one paper towel instead of five to clean up a mess. So how do we get things to change without forcing it? And I am really asking the question...how do we do it? I'm seriously not trying to be on her b!ch!n' without trying to find a solution, and maybe I am mistaking the intentions of a lot of people in this discussion, most of whom I am assuming are old enough to be my parents, but it seems like a lot of you have the idea that we're doin all we can and shouldn't trouble ourselves to do any more. You don't know how many of my elders I hear saying, "Damn kid, I'm glad I don't have to grow up in this mess", or my favorite, "Give me all the cheap gas I can get, I'll be dead before it becomes a real problem". I guess that's just my generation's legacy. Maybe my energies aren't all in the right direction, but I'm really trying.

[Captain Neon]

So there aren't any government mandates that make companies produce goods from post consumer product (that I know of)...and left to their own devices, it doesn't seem like that many people choose to buy the brown recycled paper towels over the nice shiny new white ones, or for that matter use one paper towel instead of five to clean up a mess. So how do we get things to change without forcing it? And I am really asking the question...how do we do it?

As soon as anyone uses the power of force to make me do something that is not in my best interest I will squeal. Once any one uses government to try and get their way, that is socialism. Socialism has many forms. The United States is rapidly moving towards national socialism where big government and big busines collude. I will not sit back idly and allow any one no matter how good intentioned they may believe themselves to be to impose fascism on me.

Socialism in all of its forms has never worked. Anytime you devise a system where any one can take advantage of another, sooner or later there will be enough people trying to use government to take advantage of others and the ones being taken advantage of will in some or fashion cease to exist. Whether they are exterminated by government or those doing the work stop working themselves.

I don't want to live in a world like that. I wish I was successful enough that I could just check out of the system and then rebuild it once it collapses. Maybe that will be course I have to take, but until then, I will squeal and raise a ruckus anytime some one wants to force me to do something that does not benefit me. What ever happened to the idea that one could do anything they wanted as long as they weren't hurting anyone else?

Private ownership is a powerful solution. When one producing hazardous chemicals has to purchase and maintain his own dumpsite, then there will be a stimulus to reducing harmful effusions. If someone comes on my land to dump stuff, I will blow his head off. Right now, I would probably be called a murderer. In my mind, I am protecting my property.

Anytime some one even suggest using the power of government to force some one to do what they want then I will not stand for it. Today it is banning incandescent light bulbs. Tomorrow it is seizing my property because it doesn't meet some one else's standards. I'm not gonna stand for it.

[TodFitch]

I don't know why I bother. This will be my last post other than strictly car related.

The United States is rapidly moving towards national socialism where big government and big busines collude. I will not sit back idly and allow any one no matter how good intentioned they may believe themselves to be to impose fascism on me.

Socialism in all of its forms has never worked. Anytime you devise a system where any one can take advantage of another, sooner or later there will be enough people trying to use government to take advantage of others and the ones being taken advantage of will in some or fashion cease to exist. Whether they are exterminated by government or those doing the work stop working themselves.

Which is it soclalism or fascism? They are different and you seem to be describing fascism and calling it "Socialism in all of its forms".

And I am not sure about the "socialism in all of its forms has never worked" part either.

But we don't have and never have had socialism in this country. We have had, mostly, a pragmatic mix of regulated capitalism with some social safety nets for the last 75 years or so. And it actually seems to work reasonably well. The mix has changed back and forth based on a lot of debate, call it politics, but that is how "government by the people" is supposed to work.

Unfettered capitalism is an artifact of the last 150 years and, unregulated, has show itself to have lots of flaws too.

Other than a monarchy I am not aware of a form of government that has lasted unchanged for more than a couple hundred years. And our country was founded an an experiment to get away from that one.

Private ownership is a powerful solution. When one producing hazardous chemicals has to purchase and maintain his own dumpsite, then there will be a stimulus to reducing harmful effusions. If someone comes on my land to dump stuff, I will blow his head off. Right now, I would probably be called a murderer. In my mind, I am protecting my property.

And history shows you would have to be forced to keep the hazardous chemicals in your own dumpsite. If you are not forced (by whom?) then you will dump the hazardous chemicals in the "public commons". Its called "externalizing costs" and businesses do it all the time because otherwise their profits would be smaller or non-existent and they would be at a competitive disadvantage with other business that don't contain their waste. Businesses are in business for one reason: To make money. That is not a bad thing, in fact it is a good thing. But don't expect any business to do public good, especially if it cost any significant money, on their own. This is where the "regulated capitalism" we have comes into play: The public, through their elected representatives, largely set the standard to which companies have to operate. Not just environmentally but in terms of worker safety, worker pay, financial transparency and a host of other issue. And all of those rules have been created because of past abuse of public trust or at least the strong appearance of abuse of public trust by a significant number of businesses.

Anytime some one even suggest using the power of government to force some one to do what they want then I will not stand for it..

I glad you are not an ax murderer. I'd have to get the government to get you to stop doing it.

By the way, I have read Ann Rand's Atlas Shrugged (and other titles) as well as more reality based books by others like Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. My opinion on Atlas Shrugged is that the author lived in an alternate universe from where I am in terms of how government, business, people and technology actually work.

[Captain Neon]

If you were to read what the authours of our US Constitution believed you would understand that government by the people is not what we have in the United States. The functions of government that you describe are pure fascism and foundational principles of the Socialist Party and steps proposed by Karl Marx and his fellow travelers. To deny that fascism is a form of socialism shows your ignorance of political theory. Tod, what you believe is good government and politics is what Ben Franklin described as three wolves and two sheep voting on dinner.

Governments function is not to feed, clothe, or shelter any one. It's only purpose is to protect people's inherent rights. If you were to actually study the debate of the Constitutional convention, you would discover that there was a sizable group of delegates that wanted the United States to closely model itself after Great Britain, they wanted an elected House of Commons (House of Representatives) and a hereditary body from the American nobility, i.e. shippers and planters, similar to the House of Lords (Senate). Their plan was that the President would be a lifetime position just like the king. Hamilton and John Adams were monarchists. The Federalist Party was a coalition of the monarchists. No, despite what we were spoon fed in publick school, these united States did not separate from the British empire because they opposed monarchy.

The War for American Independence was largely an economic war. Great Britain was using force on the colonists in various ways. One need only read the Amendments 1 through 10 to understand what tyranny the American colonists faced at the hands of the British Empire. The colonists fought a war over taxation approaching 10%. We now accept taxation that is over 25% and some think we should be enslaved further, esp. when they perceive a personal benefit at others expense. "Tax me at 25%. Good deal. I get back 30% from sucking on the government teat!"

You state that Ayn Rand lived in an alternative universe because you refuse to recognise the similarities in our current political system and what Ms. Rand outlined. When I first read Atlas Shrugged, I was blown away at how similar Ms. Rand's narrative is to our current political climate. Remember, Ms. Rand's fiction was never intended to be documentary and she was trying to make a point as to where the US and the world were going to. She observed first-hand the Bolshevik Revolution and how communism ruined Russia and Eastern Europe.

Do I agree w/ EVERYTHING Ayn Rand taught in her life? Of course not, but I firmly believe in Enlightened Self-interest as outlined in her novels. When government gets out of the way, the most successful companies will do the right thing because it is good for business. Companies will treat their employees fairly and even well to retain and attract the very best employees. Many of the functions of government you clamour for can actually be better taken care of by private industry. Right now people rely on the USDA Seal of Approval for safe food. Give me a break! If there wasn't a government monopoly on food inspection in this country, responsible companies could sell their products with any number of seals of approval and standards, and they will proudly place these hard won standards on the label. My Jewish friends have pointed out to me with markings placed on various foodstuffs exemplify which Kosher authourities' approvals. Some Kosher approvals are harder to get. Why can't we have something similar for everything else? Butterball products meet the ISO9001 standard, but the consumer doesn't care because they have been brainwashed into thinking that their food is safe because it is USDA inspected. USDA inspection is a minimum standard that I as a consumer wish I didn't have to settle for.

If you take the time to dig into labour relations through out most of history you will find poor labour conditions when government favours one company or industry over another thus locking people into poor economic situations. Most of the famed robber barons of the 19th Century owed their success to manipulating government power to their own advantage. You call it politics of and by the people. I call it socialism because that is what it is. Pure capitalism uses every advantage it can get, and that includes politics and government power to position oneself to greatest advantage. The Austrian School of Economics of which I align myself philosophically believes that government is the main cause of economic hardship and financial disaster. When government sticks its nose where it doesn't belong. Government property, regulations, etc. are then used and abused.

The experiment you call the United States was never intended to model a system where one group of people tries to use the force of government to get advantages for themselves at the expense of others. Quite the contrary.

You call it today's reality. I call it a nightmare!

[Arthur1947]

I thought the whole reason we went to war was to somehow capture the oil in the middle east? What ever happened to that argument? Simple fact, Democracies do not go to war with one another. I'd like to ask Al Gore what the difference is between "Global Warming" and "Climate change". Whatever happened to global cooling? So many questions. I'll vote Democrat if the weather is bad a Republican when the weather is good. Go figure!

Best.

ARTHUR

[wayfarer]

Captian Neon, RIGHT ON !!!!

Crazy, instead of corn, try Scotch Broom. The oil literally coats your skin when you handle it.

...and Mr Gore and his lot have yet to explain why Mars and Venus are warming at the same rate as planet Earth....just wish I had a clue exactly what the enviro-wackos were really up to so they could be dealt with.

And a big THANK YOU to our administrator for allowing this thread to continue.....something not allowed on other sites regardless of how informative or thought provoking the content might be.

[crazycasey]

This type of discussion can go on till the end of time and people will still disagree.

You know, you're right...but you know, I feel like I said my piece...I'm okay with people thinking I'm moving in the right direction and I'm ok with people thinking I'm crazy.

Also! Sometimes debating with somebody can be a good excercise in understanding your own beliefs further. Somebody might ask you a question that makes you explain a particular belief in a way that provokes ideas you'd never even considered. Sometimes it might even change your mind.

I too am glad that we have an adminstrator that will let a thread like this go on. I think it's good for any community to give it's members a chance to occasionally stand upon their soap box.

Captain Neon, you say a lot of good things and have definately challenged some of the things I believe. You have given me cause to further research things that I thought I understood. I think you're a bit "out there", but people probably think that about me too, so what the hell right? Ultimately I'm glad to have you on here, because what you say is, at the very least, provoking of thought. Now let's all go to another thread and talk about Mopars!

[falconvan]

It's become painfully obvious in recent years that the government cannot or will not do anything to help us on the gas prices, no matter which party is in office. On the same note Detroit will not release an affordable high mileage vehicle because they want to trickle new technology out and make a killing on it. There's a guy called Robert Q Riley who has been selling plans so build homebuilt small, 50+MPG vehicles since the 1980's and has had a decent amount of success. A local guy who built one called the Doran turned me on to him. The little car is really cool and it cost him a little over 5K to build it in his garage. I ordered my plans to build my own. I figure the only way to beat this is to take our car building skills and take matters into our own hands. Here's a link. http://www.rqriley.com/doran.html

[Captain Neon]

Does any one know whether this car would be licenced as a car or a motorcycle? I realise that every state is different. Here in Colorado to ride anything w/ 50cc or larger a motorcycle licence is required. When I lived in Minnesota, a 250cc was the cut-off. I am assuming since this is a three-wheeled vehicle that most state governments would consider the Doran a motorcycle instead of an automobile. Just something for those of us without motorcycle licences to consider before taking on such an endeavour.

It's become painfully obvious in recent years that the government cannot or will not do anything to help us on the gas prices, no matter which party is in office. On the same note Detroit will not release an affordable high mileage vehicle because they want to trickle new technology out and make a killing on it. There's a guy called Robert Q Riley who has been selling plans so build homebuilt small, 50+MPG vehicles since the 1980's and has had a decent amount of success. A local guy who built one called the Doran turned me on to him. The little car is really cool and it cost him a little over 5K to build it in his garage. I ordered my plans to build my own. I figure the only way to beat this is to take our car building skills and take matters into our own hands. Here's a link. http://www.rqriley.com/doran.html

[hkestes41]

It's become painfully obvious in recent years that the government cannot or will not do anything to help us on the gas prices, no matter which party is in office. On the same note Detroit will not release an affordable high mileage vehicle because they want to trickle new technology out and make a killing on it. There's a guy called Robert Q Riley who has been selling plans so build homebuilt small, 50+MPG vehicles since the 1980's and has had a decent amount of success. A local guy who built one called the Doran turned me on to him. The little car is really cool and it cost him a little over 5K to build it in his garage. I ordered my plans to build my own. I figure the only way to beat this is to take our car building skills and take matters into our own hands. Here's a link. http://www.rqriley.com/doran.html

I have actually been looking at his site over the past few weeks off and on and like the new XR3 better than the Doran. Would be a little more pricey to build but I think has a better look and performance.

http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm

[hkestes41]

There is also this one that will be a production vehicle. Targeting upper $20's for a price in production. Looks like it would be a blast to drive.

http://www.flytheroad.com/

[falconvan]

Does any one know whether this car would be licenced as a car or a motorcycle? I realise that every state is different. Here in Colorado to ride anything w/ 50cc or larger a motorcycle licence is required. When I lived in Minnesota, a 250cc was the cut-off. I am assuming since this is a three-wheeled vehicle that most state governments would consider the Doran a motorcycle instead of an automobile. Just something for those of us without motorcycle licences to consider before taking on such an endeavour.

I believe in Missouri anything with less than four wheels is considered a motorcycle; which is actually good because there are fewer restrictions on safety equipment. I'm looking foward to recieving the plans and looking them over.