Carburetor Jetting

[HotRodTractor]

I recently picked up a Carter Ball & Ball E9K1 carb - which was one of the carbs used on the dual factory setups - it was relatively cheap and looked to be clean, mostly complete, and in overall good condition. When I stripped the top off when I got home to see what the insides looked like - I noticed that the main jet is the richest one offered for this carb (224-10S) and that got me thinking about jetting.

 

Near as I can tell.... Carb jet part numbers go from richest to leanest with flow numbers that I have found:

224-10S                                                    (332-336cc of flow)

224-13S                                                    (315-319cc of flow)

224-14S 

224-15S                                                   (287cc of flow)

224-12S    

224-11S                                                    (256cc of flow)

224-17S

224-18S

 

Does anyone sell new jets for these carbs or am I relegated to scrounging for old parts either from unused inventory or other carbs? Does anyone perhaps have the through diameters measured already - it would save me a little work.

 

Has anyone found a need to change the main jet in these carbs to compensate for "modern" ethanol enriched gas? I could see where it might be necessary to perhaps go one jet richer, but I haven't actually done any testing or taken readings from an oxygen sensor (I do plan on doing that this summer if I can get everything else done to start enjoying the P15 a bit).

 

Does anyone still sell a Grose jet to replace the inlet needle and seat? The P15 I picked up from Don has them installed on both carbs and I can see the merit. It would be nice if I could find some for future carb rebuilds for my Pilothouse project.

 

Does anyone happen to have the Carter service manual pages for the D6G1 carb? Those are what is on the P15 and I would just like to compare notes between what is actually built and the carb sheet the next time I have to go into them.

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Must have been that E9G1 carb on ebay last week..? The large flow needle and seat was missing.

Carter # 159-94S is 344-348 CC's... biggest one I know of. Some straight 8's and Chrysler industrial engines use it..

These big flow B&B carbs are very hard to find parts for.

The E9G1/E9K1 bowl body is different than all the other B&B carbs...venturi size and inlet needle thread size.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Dodgeb4ya

[Don Coatney]

You might call George Asche. The carburetors on your car came from him.

[HotRodTractor]

8 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Must have been that E9G1 carb on ebay last week..? The large flow needle and seat was missing.

Carter # 159-94S is 344-348 CC's... biggest one I know of. Some straight 8's and Chrysler industrial engines use it..

These big flow B&B carbs are very hard to find parts for.

The E9G1/E9K1 bowl body is different than all the other B&B carbs...venturi size and inlet needle thread size.

 

It was. I decided to take a gamble on it and figured if nothing else it could be good for parts - I have two more of them that I plan on restoring. First quick pass its missing the inlet needle and seat, the main mixture needle, and the little wire pump link. Everything else looks like its there.

 

Is the "159" series of jets just an updated part numbering system for the "224" series of jets? That might help.

Edited April 5, 2019 by HotRodTractor

[55 Fargo]

George Ache will tell you all Jets are getting scarce for these carbs 

Talk with George he can help you out with some real info.

Hes 87 now and the clock is ticking, he is a real wealth of info and detail on this stuff.

[HotRodTractor]

On 4/4/2019 at 11:13 PM, Don Coatney said:

You might call George Asche. The carburetors on your car came from him.

 

16 hours ago, 55 Fargo said:

George Ache will tell you all Jets are getting scarce for these carbs 

Talk with George he can help you out with some real info.

Hes 87 now and the clock is ticking, he is a real wealth of info and detail on this stuff.

 

I know George Ache is the man - and once I have some spring stuff done I plan on making a drive out to see him in person. As you guys know - he isn't going to be around forever. That is why I am asking questions - the more knowledge we document the more these old beasts can live on once all the guys that have "been there, done that" are gone.

 

Also - as far as parts rarity goes - it seems everything I want is always hard to get. lol When it comes to these carbs - I view things like jets and inlet valves as commodities that I can easily manufacture if I have to. The jets themselves would be very easy once I have some critical dimensions (through hole diameter) along with understanding the test conditions for the stated flow rates above. I could easily make these (or even drill out old smaller jets larger if needed). Truth be told I was even kicking around the idea of building installing an adjustable main jet if I found it beneficial. It looks like with some minor modifications to carb body it could be done (I'd do that on some common carb, not an E9K1).

 

Honestly I think the shear number of variations of these carbs are why they aren't more popular. Pick up a Stromberg 81 or 97, or a Holley 94, etc... and you pretty much know exactly what you have. Grab a Carter Ball & Ball and it could be one of a few dozen variants. I feel like Forrest Gump with a box of chocolates. lol

[thebeebe5]

When I needed to change jet sizes (as determined with a AFR computer program and O2 sensor) I found it quite easy to pin gauge the current jet, solder it up and re-drill smaller as needed.  I cover the set up and jetting in my “time for an overhaul” thread at the end.  Of course even without AFR equipment you can make required changes this way.   The solder is nice because all you need do is heat the jet quickly to melt out the solder I’d you want to go back to whatever size it was initialy, provided you haven’t over-sized it of course. 

[HotRodTractor]

16 minutes ago, thebeebe5 said:

When I needed to change jet sizes (as determined with a AFR computer program and O2 sensor) I found it quite easy to pin gauge the current jet, solder it up and re-drill smaller as needed.  I cover the set up and jetting in my “time for an overhaul” thread at the end.  Of course even without AFR equipment you can make required changes this way.   The solder is nice because all you need do is heat the jet quickly to melt out the solder I’d you want to go back to whatever size it was initialy, provided you haven’t over-sized it of course. 

 

I remember reading that a while ago. Thanks for the reminder. If I recall correctly you did exactly what I am planning on doing in the future. I'm just simply asking questions trying to understand it better now, so I am prepped when I get into the meat and potatoes of it. The solder is a good idea too - simple, quick, and effective.

[55 Fargo]

For what its worth  the throttle bore and ventun size are the critical piece in cfm.  Yes you can swap some bottoms and some center with diferent carbs but there not universal.

Might just end up chasing your tail on this.

[HotRodTractor]

2 hours ago, 55 Fargo said:

For what its worth  the throttle bore and ventun size are the critical piece in cfm.  Yes you can swap some bottoms and some center with diferent carbs but there not universal.

Might just end up chasing your tail on this.

 

I get the whole smaller bore, less CFM thing. I engineer air atomized lube spray equipment for a living.

 

I'm currently less interested in making a "frankencarb" than I am in having a list of jet sizes for both the main and step up jets just to use as a baseline for tuning any particular carb a little richer or a little leaner regardless of cfm rating. If there is a chart that says you have a -13S jet with 0.XXX" diameter through hole and you need to lean it up a couple of steps to a -12S with 0.XXX" diameter hole, you would then have a part number as well as a diameter that you could shoot for.

 

Consider this all information gathering for when I go to tune my dual carbs this summer.

 

 

[oldasdirt]

On 4/4/2019 at 10:47 PM, HotRodTractor said:

I recently picked up a Carter Ball & Ball E9K1 carb - which was one of the carbs used on the dual factory setups - it was relatively cheap and looked to be clean, mostly complete, and in overall good condition. When I stripped the top off when I got home to see what the insides looked like - I noticed that the main jet is the richest one offered for this carb (224-10S) and that got me thinking about jetting.

 

Near as I can tell.... Carb jet part numbers go from richest to leanest with flow numbers that I have found:

224-10S                                                    (332-336cc of flow)

224-13S                                                    (315-319cc of flow)

224-14S 

224-15S                                                   (287cc of flow)

224-12S    

224-11S                                                    (256cc of flow)

224-17S

224-18S

 

Does anyone sell new jets for these carbs or am I relegated to scrounging for old parts either from unused inventory or other carbs? Does anyone perhaps have the through diameters measured already - it would save me a little work.

 

Has anyone found a need to change the main jet in these carbs to compensate for "modern" ethanol enriched gas? I could see where it might be necessary to perhaps go one jet richer, but I haven't actually done any testing or taken readings from an oxygen sensor (I do plan on doing that this summer if I can get everything else done to start enjoying the P15 a bit).

 

Does anyone still sell a Grose jet to replace the inlet needle and seat? The P15 I picked up from Don has them installed on both carbs and I can see the merit. It would be nice if I could find some for future carb rebuilds for my Pilothouse project.

 

Does anyone happen to have the Carter service manual pages for the D6G1 carb? Those are what is on the P15 and I would just like to compare notes between what is actually built and the carb sheet the next time I have to go into them.

 

 

 

1)  yes

2) just changing jets is not a solution to running ethanol tossed into gas. Using real gasoline is the solution.

3) no Ansel Grose died, and no one has produced the jets since nor will you find it easy to find them.

4) I am sure I do, but a d6g1 which is a 1 9/16 throttle bore 1 ¼ venturi carb is not an island on to its own.  Your center sections are more important that the top which can be and

is often changed around.

 

As taken from a document I have from Tim Kingsbury - 

 

3 bolt – center section is 660 for Plymouth – starting 1950

2 bolt – center section is 635 -  1949 only

2 bolt – center section is 370 -  1939 – 1948

 

 

On 4/5/2019 at 7:22 AM, HotRodTractor said:

 

On 4/5/2019 at 7:22 AM, HotRodTractor said:

It was. I decided to take a gamble on it and figured if nothing else it could be good for parts - I have two more of them that I plan on restoring. First quick pass its missing the inlet needle and seat, the main mixture needle, and the little wire pump link. Everything else looks like its there.

 

Is the "159" series of jets just an updated part numbering system for the "224" series of jets? That might help.

 

Answer -  no they are not

 

THe carb you have purchased  has 1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi. The main and other jetting can be changed  but there is no getting around the throttle bore and venturi size

as I think 55Fargo was eluding to.

 

 

On 4/6/2019 at 1:46 PM, HotRodTractor said:

 

 

I know George Ache is the man - and once I have some spring stuff done I plan on making a drive out to see him in person. As you guys know - he isn't going to be around forever. That is why I am asking questions - the more knowledge we document the more these old beasts can live on once all the guys that have "been there, done that" are gone.

 

Also - as far as parts rarity goes - it seems everything I want is always hard to get. lol When it comes to these carbs - I view things like jets and inlet valves as commodities that I can easily manufacture if I have to. The jets themselves would be very easy once I have some critical dimensions (through hole diameter) along with understanding the test conditions for the stated flow rates above. I could easily make these (or even drill out old smaller jets larger if needed). Truth be told I was even kicking around the idea of building installing an adjustable main jet if I found it beneficial. It looks like with some minor modifications to carb body it could be done (I'd do that on some common carb, not an E9K1).

 

Honestly I think the shear number of variations of these carbs are why they aren't more popular. Pick up a Stromberg 81 or 97, or a Holley 94, etc... and you pretty much know exactly what you have. Grab a Carter Ball & Ball and it could be one of a few dozen variants. I feel like Forrest Gump with a box of chocolates. lol

 

Sorry your last statement is just factually incorrect.  Carter ball and ball made carbs for specific purposes and specifications and they provided carbs based on what their customers wanted.  A stromberg 81 or 97 were carbs that the carb maker said -  here is what we have.. its great, it will do what you want.     sounds like another automotive guy -  Henry Ford..   If he had.  The three carbs you reference number in them are the cfm of the carb.  In the case of carter ball and ball they not only ranged way lower and way higher in cfm but

they also addressed various torque curves and transmission options that manufacturers would come up with.

his way a model t would still be the only car you would need  and its color would be black.

 

2 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

 

I get the whole smaller bore, less CFM thing. I engineer air atomized lube spray equipment for a living.

 

I'm currently less interested in making a "frankencarb" than I am in having a list of jet sizes for both the main and step up jets just to use as a baseline for tuning any particular carb a little richer or a little leaner regardless of cfm rating. If there is a chart that says you have a -13S jet with 0.XXX" diameter through hole and you need to lean it up a couple of steps to a -12S with 0.XXX" diameter hole, you would then have a part number as well as a diameter that you could shoot for.

 

Consider this all information gathering for when I go to tune my dual carbs this summer.

 

 

 

I see so this thread went from you were documenting  carb components which i had some interest in digging out all my carter ball and ball books, to your the 

expert and your using this to tune your dual carbs this summer..  rofl..    I also see you have bought Don C car which I am sure must be tuned to the nth degree

because it was dons.      Thanks for the laughs folks..  It reminds me why I dont spend much time on this site anymore.    No offense and best of luck

[HotRodTractor]

2 hours ago, oldasdirt said:

 

 

1)  yes

2) just changing jets is not a solution to running ethanol tossed into gas. Using real gasoline is the solution.

3) no Ansel Grose died, and no one has produced the jets since nor will you find it easy to find them.

4) I am sure I do, but a d6g1 which is a 1 9/16 throttle bore 1 ¼ venturi carb is not an island on to its own.  Your center sections are more important that the top which can be and

is often changed around.

 

As taken from a document I have from Tim Kingsbury - 

 

3 bolt – center section is 660 for Plymouth – starting 1950

2 bolt – center section is 635 -  1949 only

2 bolt – center section is 370 -  1939 – 1948

 

Thank you - may I inquire as to who sells jets that I can buy a sampling of?

 

I appreciate the idealistic approach to just using real gasoline, unfortunately that is simply not a realistic approach if someone wants to take nice long road trips and be able to get gas at readily available and convenient locations. Yes - I know there is something like 100 different gasoline formulations available in the US based on region, time of year, elevation, etc... will the state of tune be 100% perfect all the time everywhere - of course not, but it will be usable and good enough.

 

I knew that Grose had passed on, but I have seen his jets for other carbs reproduced and was hoping there also an equivalent readily available for our Carters. I'm not surprised that there isn't.

 

I'd love to get a copy of the D6G1 sheets if available. I have many others, but I lack that one and since that is what I have a pair of on the car, it would be nice to know what the stock factory parts are exactly. Also thanks for the center section information. I have not looked that closely at the carbs yet.

 

2 hours ago, oldasdirt said:

Answer -  no they are not

 

THe carb you have purchased  has 1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi. The main and other jetting can be changed  but there is no getting around the throttle bore and venturi size

as I think 55Fargo was eluding to.

 

 

I didn't think the jets were the same, but though my limited observations I found lots of 159 series info, little 224 series info.

 

Yes I agree - carb bores ultimately control what the carb is capable of. That is the airflow control, the jets simply meter gas into the flow - and hopefully at the desired air/fuel ratios. You setup the airflow, then you adjust your jetting to get to a target.

 

 

2 hours ago, oldasdirt said:

 

Sorry your last statement is just factually incorrect.  Carter ball and ball made carbs for specific purposes and specifications and they provided carbs based on what their customers wanted.  A stromberg 81 or 97 were carbs that the carb maker said -  here is what we have.. its great, it will do what you want.     sounds like another automotive guy -  Henry Ford..   If he had.  The three carbs you reference number in them are the cfm of the carb.  In the case of carter ball and ball they not only ranged way lower and way higher in cfm but

they also addressed various torque curves and transmission options that manufacturers would come up with.

his way a model t would still be the only car you would need  and its color would be black.

 

Ironically you state that I am factually incorrect, but then turn around and make my exact argument. Ball and Ball carbs are not as well supported in the aftermarket either for stock tune up parts or aftermarket vintage race tuning components simply because of the wonderful number of variations that are present. The built each carb to the intended application back in the day and it made it hard to simply take just any Ball & Ball carb and do x, y, and z to it and get the desired results like you could with say the ever popular Stromberg 97. Its variety in a way lead to its downfall in long term aftermarket support. There are at least 2 (maybe more) manufacturers making brand new 97 carbs today, I highly doubt anyone is considering tooling up to make a run of brand new Ball & Ball carbs. I'm not saying variety is a bad thing - I like variety as it gives a ton of options - but that also leads to lots of complications. Case in point - jetting - which this thread is about. I have yet to find a jet chart that lists all the part numbers, flow rates (and the info on the test conditions. ie gas at Xpsi over the course of a minute or whatever), and orifice sizes.  A quick Google search and there is piles of documentation and PDF documents on tuning 97s.

 

2 hours ago, oldasdirt said:

 

I see so this thread went from you were documenting  carb components which i had some interest in digging out all my carter ball and ball books, to your the 

expert and your using this to tune your dual carbs this summer..  rofl..    I also see you have bought Don C car which I am sure must be tuned to the nth degree

because it was dons.      Thanks for the laughs folks..  It reminds me why I dont spend much time on this site anymore.    No offense and best of luck

 

Yes - while my interest in documenting carb components is somewhat self serving (tuning my own carbs) - its documentation that I intended on sharing with the community as a whole. This thread simply started as a way of compiling jet information, and granted I asked about the cut sheets for carbs I own and lack the information on. The whole mixing and matching of carb parts to try and build something else came in later. Perhaps my car is tuned to the nth degree and its perfect. Perhaps not. In any case I still plan on compiling information to aid myself and assist others that want to make their cars the best they can be for themselves. No offense taken - I can only ask for help gathering jet information and attempt to keep the thread steered in that exact path. Mixing and matching carb body components is a whole different level and thread topic.

 

And as far as being an expert - if you would like to discuss the multistate physics of atomizing an incompressible fluid into an compressible fluid - I'm game - its literally my job. Quite frankly for what I am after, writing a custom OpenFOAM script just seems like a waste of time when I just need to go a hole size or two bigger or smaller to achieve what I want. Perhaps I came off a bit harsh - but I really wanted to keep this thread simple and about the jetting.

 

Enjoy your occasional, if unenjoyable, visit to this site. I'm sure that if this was a conversation in person it wouldn't go this way and it could be perfectly civil and rewarding for both over a beer.

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Carter D6G1 Tech Sheets... best I can do as to quality...extremely difficult to size and retain clarity yet not run out of my image space.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Dodgeb4ya

[HotRodTractor]

Step up Jet Chart - or best that I have been able to do so far. Just in this range of diameters it would be pretty easy to expand out to 21 different flow rates if you count in readily available metric drill bits (which it appears that Carter did). Too bad they didn't utilize some sort of smart part numbering scheme.

 

[HotRodTractor]

24 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Carter D6G1 Tech Sheets... best I can do as to quality...extremely difficult to size and retain clarity yet not run out of my image space.

 

Thank you. Interesting that the D6G1 utilizes the 159 jets. I'm going to have to tear one down and document the differences and variances better.

[James_Douglas]

Some my find this useful.  James

[HotRodTractor]

4 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

Some my find this useful.  James

 

Very useful! Thank you!

[James_Douglas]

There is an old trick ... if you cannot find a jet and need to get it larger....one thing, do not drill it.

 

Take a little piece of plywood.  Drill a hole that you can mount the jet into.  Have someone hold a funnel over the jet and pour water in the funnel. water will run out the bottom of the jet, through the plywood it is mounted in. Stick a cup into the stream and keep it there for exactly one minute.  Measure the water in CC's.

 

Then take a pipe cleaner and soak it with course valve lapping compound.  Run it through the jet back and forth at 12-3-6-9 with a sea-sawing motion.  What will happen to the brass is that you will open the jet while keeping the basic contour.  That contour is important that is why drilling does not work correctly.  You then measure again until you get the CC you want.  Then do a final pass with fine valve lapping compound to smooth it out. Check one last time and use it.

 

This takes some time, but you can increase a jet using this method.

 

You can go into the engineering books and read on how the shape and the curve of a jet is very important.  That is why drilling will cause issues.  The above will work fine if you are careful as it will take an equal amount of material off the walls of the jet.

 

James

[Geodd]

On 4/9/2019 at 11:28 PM, Dodgeb4ya said:

Carter D6G1 Tech Sheets... best I can do as to quality...extremely difficult to size and retain clarity yet not run out of my image space.

 

 

I couldn't get these images to load. Is there any way to get them from you? Thanks!!

[Dodgeb4ya]

1 minute ago, Geodd said:

I couldn't get these images to load. Is there any way to get them from you? Thanks!!

PM me your email.and I'll send clear big pics..