Just a theory...

[Mr. Belvedere]

I'm thinking old car prices may come down some over the coming months. Like home prices over the past few years, old car prices have skyrocketed. Albeit, not so much on our cars, but they have definitely gone up too. I think alot of people over the past few years borrowed against their homes rising equity to buy toys like collectable cars, boats, toyhaulers and the like. Homes and big ticket items are not hardly moving anymore and I wonder how much of that will spill over into the old car market. What say you guys?

[Norm's Coupe]

I have to disagree with your thinking on old car prices. A lot of old car guys like myself believe if you can't afford to pay cash for the old car, you shouldn't buy it. That also goes for whatever money you put into them to fix them up. So, interest rates have nothing to do with the hobby.

The only reason sales of homes is down, is because banks, etc. have tightened up on their credit standards for approving mortgages. Because of that, the housing market has taken a slight hit. That plus the housing market has gotten a little out of hand on prices lately.

As for my car, a company called Fort Howard Paper has paid for it lock stock and barrel, and then some. That's because in the early 90's I took a gamble and bought their stock when it first came out. After it shot up about 6 times what I paid for it, the company sold out to James River Paper and I got 33% more stock than I started with. With the sale of my stock holdings in the mid 90's it gave me profits of a little over 550%. I baled after James River took over because I knew from watching that company, the stock would soon fall, and it did, not long after I bailed out. I still have a long way to go to spend those profits after buying my coupe, plus everything I've put into it. So.......since the initial stock purchase was an extra gamble investment, the profits were extra and not included in any investments I would normally make. That's why everytime I look at my coupe, I say: "Thank you Ft. Howard Paper and Thank you to the Ft. Howard brokerage firm".

That's how a lot of guys I know paid for their old cars. Out of extra money, not what they count on for retirement, etc.

[eric wissing]

Home prices here in the Midwest really have not sky rocketed as they did in more appealing areas. The value of foreign currency will keep the prices from dropping too much. I have no idea of the other forum member's finances but I wouldn't think many here would borrow against their home to buy a hobby car. Maybe elsewhere some people do that. Short term effects? Who knows? My brothers and I have a house in Florida we are trying to sell and the most interested parties have been from the UK. Eric

[Jeff Ivan]

Mr. B. -Your theory sounds like a good one in some ways. So many people have been using their home equity as an ATM card, and have buried themselves deeper in debt. I myself have desperately been holding back from borrowing to build a decent garage, us folks with little money are usually better with it (or have responsible wives with steel cables for purse strings!) Some of the people who buy old cars just as a passing novelty or fad or investment only and never planned to do any work on it themselves except wash and wax may sell them without much of a second thought. But I would guess that the majority of the the folks that lurk at websites like this one are more emotionally attached to their old iron. Even the folks who don't have the skills or physical capabilities to do much of the work themselves still IMO form a bond with certain cars just by living thru and watching others help them out with some of the work. What I am saying is that the guys who buy up the old cars when the prices are lower, just for the investment ,only seem to drive up the prices again for the average old car enthusiast. I hope that makes sense? I think about how cheap those muscle cars were in the times of those gas shortages in the 1970's, and now the prices are obscene! I kick myself in the @$$ when I think I could be sitting pretty now if I had a giant warehouse filled with all the vehicles, parts, and junkers I have gone thru, especially the MoPars and rare Ramblers and AMX stuff. (Insert cliche' about hindsight here.) The Barrett-Jackson syndrome spreads everywhere.

[Mr. Belvedere]

I think lots of people live way beyond their means. We have all heard the ads beckoning you to take out a second, cash in that equity and take that dream vacation, pay for college, put in that pool or buy that motorhome and hit the open road or whatever. Home values just about everywhere have gone up, some more than others. With all that equity alot of people felt safe refied and cashed out equity, or took on seconds, or even had open lines of credit. Case in point my neighbors used their equity to buy a car and pay help for their sons wedding. The guy I bought my car from was about 70 years old and had an open line of credit against his home so he could purchase and restore old cars, the money he made on me went to pay for an engine overhaul on 33 Packard. As far as being stupid with money even financial institiutions aren't above it, what with all these subprime loans going belly up.

Harley-Davidson sales are down, new car and truck sales are down, my dad works in the RV business said nothing is moving. In fact, a year ago this time of year they could barely keep em on the lot. Whats my point, well that this has bound to spill over into the old car market, since after all they are a luxury item and those are the first things to go usually. Eric made a good point that foriegners love our old cars as well so that may help keep prices up.

[Rodney Bullock]

I will have to agree with MR. B on this because I have been shopping a project for two friends. They want street rods in the beginning stages of restoration. I have seen cars that have been subframed and motors(v8) dropped in, In the 90's these cars were 12,000-16,000. I was looking last week and I saw and was able to secure a project for one guy at 5,000 this included the v8 set up, good paint and interior. This guy could drive the car for a year before personilizing it. The other fellow found a 34 ford fiberglass kit car with everything but the motor and trans for 6,000 this still in the crate. The guy was spending 2,000 to store it and had it for 5 years, he cut his loses, I could not believe it. My guess is that the market is flooded with these cars now and because fickle people are involved with the hobby it is changing. If you look at people like myself, I love my cars so much that I don't part with them, then you look at my next door buddy who seems to get a car every 6 months, he gets tired of cars quickly and needs to see something new or he gets bored. I build my cars while he buys his so the relationship is different. They just want to unload a car so be on the look out, they are out there:D

[Norm's Coupe]

I think the comment about a lot of people living beyond their means is very true true today. That includes the houses, cars and everything else they buy. That's probably one of the reasons the overall credit crunch is on now. A lot of people don't give it a second thought to charging something they can't afford on a credit card.

I even see people buying $5.00 worth of grocery's at the store and putting it on their credit card (not a check card). I know it goes on credit because the clerk will ask them credit or check card. Stopped at a gas station the other day to pick up cigarettes. The guy in front of me was buying his lunch (sandwich & soda, etc.). He paid for it with his credit card. Now I noticed on a McDonalds TV commercial they even take credit cards. The way I look at it is, if you can't afford to use $5.00 in cash at McDonald's to buy a hamburger, it's time to get rid of the credit card. People are just going deeper and deeper in debt because they have to keep up with the Jone's. Before they know it they are in so deep they can't get out and just keep on charging more.

Heard a story about a friend of a friend the other day. That guy recently retired (his wife still works and makes a good income) and of course got his 401 from where he worked. What did he do? He withdrew $20,000 of his 401 to pay cash for a new Crossfire because he didn't want to make car payments. On the surface, that's ok. However, it would have been cheaper to finance the car and make payments in the long run. That's because the $20,000 from his 401 was never taxed when he put it into his 401. It's taxed when you take it out at the going rate for the individuals tax bracket. That means at the end of the year he's going to have to pay the tax on that money. That could cost him a lump sum of about $3,000 to $8,000 or more to use that $20,000. Simply paying the finance interest would have been cheaper and paid out over the life of the loan instead of all at once. Plus, he would have still had the money in a tax free status gaining more interest. So.......you have to think and plan a little better when using that retirement money. We won't even get into whether he really needed a Crossfire or not.

[james curl]

Some people have learned that they can charge every thing to their credit card and then pay the full amount off at the end of the month, their money is in a saving account earning a small amout of money each month. They are using the credit card companies money instead of their own. As long as they pay the full amount each and every month there is no charge for using the card. You must have self control no matter how you pay for things, I have known people who were paid every friday and still had to borrow money to pay their bills. I have always been paid once a month and you learn self control real quick for it has to last all month not just until next friday.

[Norm's Coupe]

Some people have learned that they can charge every thing to their credit card and then pay the full amount off at the end of the month, their money is in a saving account earning a small amout of money each month. They are using the credit card companies money instead of their own. As long as they pay the full amount each and every month there is no charge for using the card. You must have self control no matter how you pay for things, I have known people who were paid every friday and still had to borrow money to pay their bills. I have always been paid once a month and you learn self control real quick for it has to last all month not just until next friday.

James,

And there in lies the problem. Self control. I use a credit card like you do. Only difference is, I only use it when out and don't have enough cash on me, or the check book, or while on vacation. However, I know a lot of people can't control the amount they are spending, then they can't pay it off at the end of the month. Before you know it, the balance keeps going up and up. Had a friend tell me back in the late 90's about someone he knew who had credit card debt balances of around $50,000 and he only paid the minimum each month. At that rate, he'll be in debt the rest of his life. Credit card interest rates remind me of interest rates you saw the mob charging on TV shows for their "juice loans". Poor people never got the debt paid. You have to put a little of the blame on the banks and credit card company's too. If you don't use the card that much they keep sending you blank checks and raising your limit to get you hooked. Best thing to do with all those checks is to put them in the shredder. I can't count the other horror stories I've heard on TV and read about in magazines and newspapers. I caught part of an Opra show my wife was watching one day on TV. The subject was credit card debt. One couple on there said they had over $150,000 in credit card debt over several different cards. Looked like they were only in their 30's. By the way, that didn't count their car payments and house payments etc., and they had 2 or 3 children going to school.

[Jerry Roberts]

Some people have learned that they can charge every thing to their credit card and then pay the full amount off at the end of the month, their money is in a saving account earning a small amout of money each month. They are using the credit card companies money instead of their own. As long as they pay the full amount each and every month there is no charge for using the card. You must have self control no matter how you pay for things, I have known people who were paid every friday and still had to borrow money to pay their bills. I have always been paid once a month and you learn self control real quick for it has to last all month not just until next friday.

There is one more benifit to using the above method ; Cash back from the credit card company . I just received a check for $50 . :

[Don Coatney]

I even see people buying $5.00 worth of grocery's at the store and putting it on their credit card (not a check card). I know it goes on credit because the clerk will ask them credit or check card.

Norm;

Hard to believe a tightwad such as yourself does not understand what is going on here. If you have a debit card it also doubles as a credit card. With electronic banking I no longer carry much cash and use a debit/credit card for most purchases. When I use this card and a clerk asks me if I want to use my card as debit or credit I always reply credit. By doing so the funds I placed on the card will not be deducted from my bank account for three or more days. I can use this money for free paying no interest. If I place purchases on the debit card the funds have usually been removed from my account in the time it takes me to drive home' date=' get on my puter, and check my account. And yes I use this card for purchases of less than five dollars.

While watching an Oprah show one day on TV

Norm;

Are you now hooked on this show:D :D

[Plymouthy Adams]

I'm the guy in the commercial that bogs down the check out line and irks the people behind me for I write checks..............I have never done a debit on my cards and like most of the rest of you..my balance is always paid in full when the statement arrives.

Buying on time means getting it while available or still on sale....

[Norm's Coupe]

Norm;

Hard to believe a tightwad such as yourself does not understand what is going on here. If you have a debit card it also doubles as a credit card. With electronic banking I no longer carry much cash and use a debit/credit card for most purchases. When I use this card and a clerk asks me if I want to use my card as debit or credit I always reply credit. By doing so the funds I placed on the card will not be deducted from my bank account for three or more days. I can use this money for free paying no interest. If I place purchases on the debit card the funds have usually been removed from my account in the time it takes me to drive home, get on my puter, and check my account. And yes I use this card for purchases of less than five dollars.

Norm;

Are you now hooked on this show:D :D

Don,

I am all too familiar with Debit Cards and I would not have one if the bank paid me double what I spent for each purchase as a bonus!!!! Had one for about 3 or 4 months back in the mid 90's, that was enough to tell me that I didn't want one. Wife used hers at a shoe store one day to buy a pair of shoes. About a month later I got a call from the bank saying a police detective called about our account, so I should call the detective. When I called the detective he informed me they had caught some young woman using my wifes Debit Card to purchase items at a store (Gap For Kids). We've never been in a Gap For Kids store in our lives. I guess the same woman was also using a couple of other peoples Debit Card numbers too at the same store. Ask if I had any items on my check statement that we didn't make. Informed him not as of the last statement. I then immediately called the bank back and had them cancel the card. However, between that time and my next bank statement, my checking account was drained and I was getting overdraft notices, and they were covering the checks by taking the money out of our savings. Of course, each bounced check meant an additional overdraft charge was added and even more out of the savings. That was a real headache getting that mess straightened out and also getting our money back. We did finally get all the money back, plus the overdraft charges credited back to us. However, that took about 3 months, several trips to the bank, plus several calls to the DA's office to help the DA build his case against the woman. So.............Keep on using those Debit Cards and maybe one day you'll be as lucky as we were. Using just a plain credit card is safer. There is no access to your checking and savings account with a credit card. In fact our cards are from a completely different bank than the one we have our accounts, so there is no link to our checking/savings. We even got rid of Tyme Cards back then too, so there is not ATM access with our accounts. I also do not do any financial transactions online. Bank doesn't even know I have a computer.

The clerk at the shoe store wrote the Debit Card number down, then gave the number to another woman, who was actually using the card.

Wife isn't hooked on Opra either. She just watches it sometimes during the winter months. We don't watch much of anything on TV except the news in nice weather.

[Young Ed]

Norm I work retail and have to disagree that a credit card is safer. The true debit cards require a PIN # to be keyed and a thief should have no access to that. Now the check cards fall right into what you are talking about with getting your checking and savings drained. I don't have a check or debit card myself. Seen too many issues! I do bank online though.

[Norm's Coupe]

Ed,

When I said credit cards are safer, it was because it isn't linked to a checking/savings account. Also, it's less hassle getting a credit put back on your credit card than it is to go through what I did, to get the money back. Plus the money taken off a credit card doesn't come out of your own money until you pay the bill. If it's disputed you don't have to worry about the money since it didn't come out of your bank account. Eventually, it will be credited back as if nothing happened when the dispute is settled.

Some people like to use credit cards and debit cards because the banks give away what they call ''Free" premiums or air miles for spending so much money. However, those premiums aren't free. The consumer is paying for them. I know, we accept credit cards too. We have to pay so much for each card transaction to the credit card processing company. The cards that have all that "Free" stuff have a higher percentage rate charged to the company that takes that card. As a result, that extra percentage is added to each sale making the price that much higher on that item. So............all that "Free" stuff "ain't" free. The customer is paying for it all. Not to mention if the customer doesn't pay his bill off each month, then he gets hit again with interest from the credit card company. So...........now that "free" stuff is really costing him/her. Banks have really got a racket going with credit cards. They collect from the seller, interest from the buyer in most cases and also some banks charge an annual fee for the card on top of it. Then on top of that, if you use an ATM to get cash, you get hit with another fee, especially if that machine isn't part of your banking system. I'll stick with checks or cash. Doesn't cost anything to write a check except a couple of pennies a check to get them printed, and of course cash doesn't cost anything at all.

[Mr. Belvedere]

Last time I checked the price I pay at any retail store is the same no matter if I pay cash or credit. Now if the store passes on any fees the card companies charge them on to the customer. Then it would be all the customers because the price is the same either way. The only difference is that I am earning airline miles and the cash customer is not. In fact I have three airline tickets already paid for!

[Norm's Coupe]

Last time I checked the price I pay at any retail store is the same no matter if I pay cash or credit. Now if the store passes on any fees the card companies charge them on to the customer. Then it would be all the customers because the price is the same either way. The only difference is that I am earning airline miles and the cash customer is not. In fact I have three airline tickets already paid for!

That's a good point, the charges are spread out and everyone pays them. However, we give customers a discount for fast payment by check, and that's real money you can spend anywhere. So.......the customers who use the plastic are paying the extra fee. Many industrial and commercial companies do that. I know of a few retail places who do the same. But, you are correct many retail places don't do that..........and as a result everyone pays a little higher price, which also fuels inflation for plastic user too.