MoparMontana Posted January 26, 2018 Author Report Posted January 26, 2018 18 hours ago, Andydodge said: I also will be placing an order for the F head once my Lotto winnings come thru...........maybe I should buy a ticket, seriously tho' I have always been impressed with Earls work especially since I received my Edgy a few yrs ago, however things changed and was not able to complete the engine build........anyway looking at the rocker boxes are their design based on the Riley Ford OHV conversion from the 1930's as they appear very similar but more importantly do you have any pics of the combustion chamber side of the head?............couple more questions........lol...........are those 2 bosses cast into the front & rear of the head for machining location setup? and the injection.......WOW...........lol...........any more pics of the head?..........lol...........thanks......Andy Douglas Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 26, 2018 Author Report Posted January 26, 2018 16 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said: Good Stuff, MM Im hoping my 265 build yields me enough new power to quench the thirst....LOL This engine, a 265 from a Massey Combine, has a cam profile of .375 lift duration unknown. What could you tell me on this stock IND 265 cam, needs to be replaced or not for cruising and street use. I already have dual carbs and exhaust on my 228 its replacing, so it will be a nice mild build. I hope to get 150 HP and torque increase out of the deal.... I would do a reground cam and also mill the head, but you can't determine how much to mill it until you know the new cam specs. 25" high-compression aluminum heads will be available mid-summer. Advertised duration on a stock cam was 236*. I'd go with a 260* (222* @.050) .410" lift. 1 Quote
classiccarjack Posted January 26, 2018 Report Posted January 26, 2018 Are you guys working with Brent McCarthy at Edelbrock? We worked together on revising the 440 heads back in the early 2000's. The first revision was part of my doing... I resolved a coolant weepage issue that earlier B and RB engines had. They made some changes at Edelbrock with machining technique's and the issue is now long forgotten. He is a highly intelligent guy and works well with us common folk... 1 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 27, 2018 Author Report Posted January 27, 2018 On 1/25/2018 at 5:00 PM, RNR1957NYer said: I bought a head from Earl a year ago and can't wait to rebuild the 230 motor I picked up and install it. We MoPar folk don't have many places to turn for speed parts and I wish all the best to you and Earl in this new endeavor - I'll be contacting you about a cam and some other goodies. One immediate question: the Montana Dodge Boys used to sell a decal on your web site that was in the style of the '60's Dodge Boys salesmen blazer patch; I recently went to buy a pair for the quarter windows of my P12 and the listing was gone - are they available? These? I found a few I few final holdouts on my desk drawer. Get me your address... 1 Quote
55 Fargo Posted January 27, 2018 Report Posted January 27, 2018 7 minutes ago, MoparMontana said: These? I found a few I few final holdouts on my desk drawer. Get me your address... Oh oh your gonna need to make more of these to sell in here... 1 Quote
RNR1957NYer Posted January 27, 2018 Report Posted January 27, 2018 30 minutes ago, MoparMontana said: These? I found a few I few final holdouts on my desk drawer. Get me your address... Just sent you a message - thanks! Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 27, 2018 Author Report Posted January 27, 2018 1 hour ago, RNR1957NYer said: Just sent you a message - thanks! in the mail Quote
greg g Posted January 27, 2018 Report Posted January 27, 2018 Are these IOE or EOI? What size are the valves being used. What it the CR when installed on a 218 what is the CR when installed on a 230. How is oil supplied to the rockers, how does oil get returned to the sump? What type of carburetion and intake do you supply or recommend? What are some of the issues in evolved with setting up throttle linkage? Quote
Andydodge Posted January 27, 2018 Report Posted January 27, 2018 Greg...couldn't put it better myself.....lol.......info...we need info.........we are an inquisitive bunch, well at least you & me are...........lol..........from the pics it looks like IOE.........but the more info the better, as I am very impressed by this and would like to be even more impressed.......lol.........andyd Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 28, 2018 Author Report Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, greg g said: Are these IOE or EOI? What size are the valves being used. What it the CR when installed on a 218 what is the CR when installed on a 230. How is oil supplied to the rockers, how does oil get returned to the sump? What type of carburetion and intake do you supply or recommend? What are some of the issues in evolved with setting up throttle linkage? IOE SBC intake valves SBC roller rockers I kept the CR on my 230 at 7.5:1 because it is supercharged with a McCulloch VS-57. Earl and Chris run about 9:1. None of the 265 street heads have been fitted yet. The 265 race head is 11.2:1. Oil... drill a passage horizontally through the block under the lifter galley to intersect the middle cam bearing. Die grind a groove in the block to join the 6 o'clock oil feed hole and the 3 o'clock passage you just drilled. Reinstall cam bearing. Drill vertically from the galley floor to intersect the horizontal passage. Install 1/8 NPT pipe plug in external horizontal hole. Install 1/8 NPT to compression fitting in galley hole. Install TIG welded stainless oil manifold in compression fitting. Insert open ends of old manifold tubes into lifter oil holes on block. Secure with epoxy. Oil passes through pushrods to rockers and returns to the galley through cast "pucks" pressed into what were formerly the intake valve seats. Earl and I run 3 Strombergs. Chris runs 3 Webers but I am switching to a stealth EFI set up on my Desoto at some point. Linkage isn't any different than any multi-carb setup. Edited January 28, 2018 by MoparMontana Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 28, 2018 Author Report Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) digging through old photos... Edited January 28, 2018 by MoparMontana photo 1 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 28, 2018 Author Report Posted January 28, 2018 Ignore epoxy. Porting work. 1 Quote
Andydodge Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Were the Riley F heads used as a basis for the F head design used on the mopar engines or a completely new arrangement?.............and as expected I am even more impressed.......lol............thanks, andyd Quote
classiccarjack Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Thanks for the photos! Neato! I love this kind of stuff. Quote
greg g Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) Lots of conjecture, supposition,and scientific wild ass guessing going on. You say you studied the numbers and made some subtle changes and claim a 40% HP gain. Paint me skeptical. Where are the numbers? I have posted my mods and dyno numbers several times, I have seen a timing slip for another members car with similar modifications to mine from quarter mile drag racing. Not thinking that any one is going to build a full out land speed car to drive on the street, but don't you have any hard numbers? A 50% increase even with a supercharger isnt comparable to other factory cars when similarly equipped. Graham Paige 218. 95 HP to 124, Kaiser 226 118 HP to 140, Ford Thunderbird v8 215 HP to 245 HP. In these cases they are all in the 20/25 HP neighbor hood. To pick up another 20%, more radical modifications would have been called for. So maybe I am picking nits here, but any body wanting to spend money on a performance piece or pieces should be provided with instrumented,documented, and verified real world measurements of the results of the investment of time and money necessary to effect the changes. This does go a bit beyond the capabilities of most of the readers in this community. When some one tells me I need to drill through an internal engine casting, this makes me think I need the services of a machine shop, more than a trip to True Value to buy a nice new sharp bit and a tap or two, and factor in the added expense of engaging a qualified craftsman to performs the task. This isn't tour average shade tree head swap. I don't in any way want to disparage skills the fellows here who have the tools, experience, and where with all to do this installation, but this is likely to be beyond the scope of the average hobbiest mechanic in the old car hobby. Edited January 28, 2018 by greg g 1 1 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 28, 2018 Author Report Posted January 28, 2018 3 hours ago, greg g said: Lots of conjecture, supposition,and scientific wild ass guessing going on. You say you studied the numbers and made some subtle changes and claim a 40% HP gain. Paint me skeptical. Where are the numbers? I have posted my mods and dyno numbers several times, I have seen a timing slip for another members car with similar modifications to mine from quarter mile drag racing. Not thinking that any one is going to build a full out land speed car to drive on the street, but don't you have any hard numbers? A 50% increase even with a supercharger isnt comparable to other factory cars when similarly equipped. Graham Paige 218. 95 HP to 124, Kaiser 226 118 HP to 140, Ford Thunderbird v8 215 HP to 245 HP. In these cases they are all in the 20/25 HP neighbor hood. To pick up another 20%, more radical modifications would have been called for. So maybe I am picking nits here, but any body wanting to spend money on a performance piece or pieces should be provided with instrumented,documented, and verified real world measurements of the results of the investment of time and money necessary to effect the changes. This does go a bit beyond the capabilities of most of the readers in this community. When some one tells me I need to drill through an internal engine casting, this makes me think I need the services of a machine shop, more than a trip to True Value to buy a nice new sharp bit and a tap or two, and factor in the added expense of engaging a qualified craftsman to performs the task. This isn't tour average shade tree head swap. I don't in any way want to disparage skills the fellows here who have the tools, experience, and where with all to do this installation, but this is likely to be beyond the scope of the average hobbiest mechanic in the old car hobby. Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 28, 2018 Author Report Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) I'm not quite sure what your point is... are we even talking about the same thing? F-heads, flatheads, blown, unblown? I'm simply sharing some fun projects that I thought would be of interest to L-6 Mopar enthusiasts. I'm not trying to sell you anything, never implied that it's a weekend bolt-on, or even that more than a few dozen people on the planet will find it of interest. The three 230 F-heads are simply running prototypes at this point, which is what's fun about it to me. It's entertaining to see the reactions at a car show and listen to folks guess what the powerplant is (lots of "diesel" guesses), or simply drive something that's truly one of a kind. As far as dyno numbers, Earl produced 271 RWHP on with his flathead 265, but that's injected on methanol so that's a different animal. We're currently making around 190 RWHP (net) with our 212" flathead '28 Dodge four banger, but that's with 5# of boost and on methanol as well, so we're not talking apples to apples there either... not to mention our town is at 4650' so that HP would need to be corrected as well. We've never dynoed it with the full (10#) of boost we run at the Salt but it is substantially more given the speed increases over the years as we've add boost. I do look forward to getting my Desoto on a dyno someday, hopefully this summer, if I ever get the blow-through Strombergs (fuel leakers) fully sorted. As far as comparing to other engines, I'm not aware of any production engines that had a F-head conversion AND a supercharger, so I'm not sure of the relevance there. Considering a '57 230 with 8:1 was rated at 132 HP gross at 3600 RPM, I don't think guesstimating that a one with the increased flow of a F-head and a few pounds of boost wouldn't be making 150+, but you're obviously a lot more anal about all of this than I am. Next time someone asks, I will just say I'm not sure. I'd love to see your modifications and dyno sheets. Where would I look? Cheers, Pete Edited January 28, 2018 by MoparMontana poor choice of words 1 1 Quote
Andydodge Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Pete.....I for one am VERY pleased, impressed and appreciative of all your efforts and trust you continue to keep us informed...........thank you...Andy Douglas 1 2 Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 28, 2018 Author Report Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Andydodge said: Pete.....I for one am VERY pleased, impressed and appreciative of all your efforts and trust you continue to keep us informed...........thank you...Andy Douglas Thanks Andy! I know there are lots of folks like you and I that get off on oddball grassroots projects. It's why I'm a Production Manager at work and not one of the Engineers. I might not be as geeky or articulate, but we get s**t done! Edited January 28, 2018 by MoparMontana Quote
classiccarjack Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Hi Pete, We think similar, I to enjoy the "wow" factor of someone putting some energy into modifying a flathead. I am so sick of the small block chevy being shoved into everything out there, that I care never to see one again. If your time and effort makes extra HP, I see that as a added bonus. Please keep sharing, I understand where Greg is coming from, but not all of us are that technical. I got lucky goofing around with a slant six, people laughed at me, criticized me, and you get the point. But every single one of those guys finally got their chance to run side by side. I never lost a race.... Yet... But it's fun for me, and if I lose, well it's just a slant six for crying out loud! LOL Please keep motoring Pete, I am enjoying your efforts. -Jack H. 1 1 Quote
greg g Posted January 28, 2018 Report Posted January 28, 2018 Not being anal, its just trying to figure what is cost effective and doable for a home enthusiast. My Mustang dyno pull was done @ 1348 feet. Rwhp at 3280 (owner limited) rpm was 127. Started with a 125 factory HP 56 Plymouth 230. At the time of the pull the engine had about 5000 miles on a fresh rebuild with .030 over bore, head and deck milled .050 total, stock camshaft, new guides springs and regrind. Balanced, fly wheel lightened. Dual carters on a Fenton intake. Initial timing at 5° btdc. Don't have the numbers in front of me right now so I can't be certain about the torque results. The only production F head I am aware of in domestic vehicles is the ones Willy's made for a few years. I just like to know what the bang for the buck is. I consider that to be frugal rather than anal, which is defiantly not a character flaw that I am saddled with. Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 29, 2018 Author Report Posted January 29, 2018 32 minutes ago, greg g said: Not being anal, its just trying to figure what is cost effective and doable for a home enthusiast. My Mustang dyno pull was done @ 1348 feet. Rwhp at 3280 (owner limited) rpm was 127. Started with a 125 factory HP 56 Plymouth 230. At the time of the pull the engine had about 5000 miles on a fresh rebuild with .030 over bore, head and deck milled .050 total, stock camshaft, new guides springs and regrind. Balanced, fly wheel lightened. Dual carters on a Fenton intake. Initial timing at 5° btdc. Don't have the numbers in front of me right now so I can't be certain about the torque results. The only production F head I am aware of in domestic vehicles is the ones Willy's made for a few years. I just like to know what the bang for the buck is. I consider that to be frugal rather than anal, which is defiantly not a character flaw that I am saddled with. Got it, so the question was about bang (no pun intended) for the buck. That answer is really easy - NO, DON'T DO IT! PUTTING AN F-HEAD ON YOUR L-6 MOPAR MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO FINANCIAL SENSE WHAT-SO-EVER! ALSO, NEVER EVER BUILD A RACE CAR ...OR BUY A BOAT... OR GET INTO SCUBA DIVING... OR BUY A VINTAGE AIRSTREAM... OR BUY A USED PORSCHE... oh crap, I've done all of that too Arrgghh.... Today I'm wrapping up the engine build for my 1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer. Pulling the smog motor 360 AMC ("144 HP") and putting in a LQ4 6.0 LS3 with a .600" lift roller cam, .030 milled heads, and 55 lb/hr injectors. That combo is supposed to make around 550HP. In a 30 year old Jeep... admittedly not smart... but man, it's going to be fun to pull the race car or the boat (1970 Sleekcraft). In all seriousness, let me know when you dig up your dyno sheets. I'm truly curious to compare as we build more interesting vintage motors to see how they compare. Cheers! Quote
MoparMontana Posted January 29, 2018 Author Report Posted January 29, 2018 This one is my favorite. Love the methanol flames out the exhaust! 2 Quote
classiccarjack Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 I really like how that four cylinder Rev's on the Dyno. Impressive results for a 90 year old engine! Quote
RNR1957NYer Posted January 29, 2018 Report Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, MoparMontana said: Got it, so the question was about bang (no pun intended) for the buck. That answer is really easy - NO, DON'T DO IT! PUTTING AN F-HEAD ON YOUR L-6 MOPAR MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO FINANCIAL SENSE WHAT-SO-EVER! ALSO, NEVER EVER BUILD A RACE CAR ...OR BUY A BOAT... OR GET INTO SCUBA DIVING... OR BUY A VINTAGE AIRSTREAM... OR BUY A USED PORSCHE... oh crap, I've done all of that too Arrgghh.... Today I'm wrapping up the engine build for my 1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer. Pulling the smog motor 360 AMC ("144 HP") and putting in a LQ4 6.0 LS3 with a .600" lift roller cam, .030 milled heads, and 55 lb/hr injectors. That combo is supposed to make around 550HP. In a 30 year old Jeep... admittedly not smart... but man, it's going to be fun to pull the race car or the boat (1970 Sleekcraft). In all seriousness, let me know when you dig up your dyno sheets. I'm truly curious to compare as we build more interesting vintage motors to see how they compare. Cheers! Channeling the ghost of Bill Harrah, Pete? He put a Ferrari V12 in his '77 Wagoneer. Don't think he was much concerned about return on investment, either (at least with his cars). Sure was fun for us poor folk to look at them, though. Please keep the posts coming. 1 Quote
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