Brakes Debate Thread

[55 Fargo]

21 minutes ago, meadowbrook said:

Can anyone tell me the advantage of Lockheed twin  wheel cylinder front drums? At least a standard drum is self energizing, you lose that with Lockheed 

It creates 2 leading shoes, and is far superior to a single wheel cyl Lockheed style brake. If these are big enough, in well maintained condition and adjust and arced correctly, fantastic brake systems.

Years ago Guys would put on 11 or even 12 inch brakes on the 10 inch Plyms for super braking...

[Niel Hoback]

Self energizing means the shoes tend to angle in to the drums, increasing the pressure. This happens on the front shoe of one cylinder brakes and both shoes on two cylinder brakes because both shoes are facing the direction of drum rotation. Instead of losing self energizing, Lockheeds double it.

[Niel Hoback]

Rockwood, you type much faster than I do !!

[dale]

Well i drove my 46 Plymouth on its first run to test the new brakes..  I had installed a Ford rearend with disc brakes and Scarebird disc on the front and then replaced the original master cyl. with a firewall mounted dual master cyl. and vacuum booster.  Final verdict... It stops on a dime with a tap of the toe.. Next on to see about power steering.

[pflaming]

I'm certain you are aware of the fact that you are eliminating the unique pleasures of an old car driving experience, but that's not a problem with me and your right to do.  JMHO 

[dale]

I think these things inhance the driving pleasure.  IMO

[55 Fargo]

12 hours ago, dale said:

Well i drove my 46 Plymouth on its first run to test the new brakes..  I had installed a Ford rearend with disc brakes and Scarebird disc on the front and then replaced the original master cyl. with a firewall mounted dual master cyl. and vacuum booster.  Final verdict... It stops on a dime with a tap of the toe.. Next on to see about power steering.

guess if you made your p15 into a modern Chevy powered car, you might as well go good and modern brakes, most likely GM calipre parts.

If you are driving 80 mph and are older, good reason to enhance your braking ...

11 hours ago, pflaming said:

I'm certain you are aware of the fact that you are eliminating the unique pleasures of an old car driving experience, but that's not a problem with me and your right to do.  JMHO 

All but your engine, transmission and paint job Paul.....

[John-T-53]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 3:29 PM, TodFitch said:

Having recently moved from the Bay Area to the southern fringes of the Los Angeles metroplex, I my opinion is that LA has worse traffic than SF.

In the SF area it is pretty easy to get to the back roads of the Santa Cruz Mountains, across the Golden Gate Bridge to Marin County, the East Bay hills or even the Central Valley where you can slow down and enjoy the drive on secondary roads. Much harder to do that where I am now, there is only one way out of town that does not involve miles of urban/suburban stop light infested roads or at least an hour on a freeway going 75 or 80 MPH. Unless it is "rush hour" in which case nothing on the surface streets or freeways average much over 10 to 15 MPH.

On the other hand, I do get to spend some time on the beach everyday and, unlike anyplace north of Big Sur, the water is usually warm enough that you can think about going in.

I do miss SC and the pristine beaches down there. I have felt that the bay area (especially the peninsula) is a much more old car-friendly place, however. Not only in the back road availability and small scale of the urban landscape, but the amount of businesses and services around here that cater to the hobby. I guess you could thank the large amount of well-off folks which equates to an above-average per-capita of exotics and collector cars to keep the specialty shops in business.

SC is great if you're shopping for surf boards, flip flops, or wet suits!

My preferred way out of town was the coast highway going north, even if going further than Dana Point it was enough of a relief to stay off the 5 for those few miles. Too bad there's not an alternate coast hwy. through Camp Pendleton!

 

 

[dale]

Is it possible to have too good of brakes no matter how you drive ?

[55 Fargo]

Okay folks a bit of an update, on Saturday noticed I had a wet back of the wheel right rear, a wheel cyl leaking, and not fast but a leaker none the least.

After doing the brakes, this slave cyl looked good, so left it in, not a good idea, but 5 years later.

S off it came, and had a brand new wheel cyl in my parts stash.

The shoes weren't contaminated hardly at all, so cleaned everything up with brake clean, I did use a brand new "hardware kit" so all was good.

Incidentally, this brake set-up is setup for an ebrake, i need the lever on each side and the cables, and this will come in handy for the A833 transplant scheduled for this summer.

Got all back together, and then relaized had nobdy to assist in brake bleeding, so set-up the 1 man "performance" brand brake bleeder, and flushed bled all the brakes, but was not satisfied with my results, was still getting some air in.

I then pulled the bleeders of each front slave cyl, and cleaned them well, hooked up the 1 man bleeder, and re-bled brakes, and used a prop rod to hold brake pedal down on each stroke, instant air out.

But still was not completely satisfied with the pedal feel, then it registered, adjust the back brake, I did and instant great pedal, and adjusted all the brakes.

The brakes are great, super high firm pedal, lock em up at 50 mph running straight.

Now all of you diskers, don't get wound up, not saying they are better, in fact Chrysler self energizing drum brakes or 11 or 12 inch dual wheel cyl Lockheed are most likely better, but these are pretty darn good....thank you

[55 Fargo]

Okay so went for a highway drive, and with a Harley fast approaching me from behind, and needing to turn left onto my road, and traffic coming in the opposite direction it was a test.

at 65 mph stopping quickly to make my turn (not a panic stop), and a strong wind at my back, stops okay, but not as good as my modern stuff with disc, so could us improvements.

This old truck with modern rear drum, and the 1 wheel cyl 10 inch Lockheeds, most likely are a bit small, 11 inch diual wheel cyl brakes or more modern 11 inch self energizing up front would be much better....

[meadowbrook]

Folks, there is nothing inherently wrong with Drum brakes, 

In fact, drums have more stopping power, as they are self energizing. Their issue is loss of braking doe tô overheating since they don't shed heat as well. 

Ever notice Semis have all drums?

[55 Fargo]

1 hour ago, meadowbrook said:

Folks, there is nothing inherently wrong with Drum brakes, 

In fact, drums have more stopping power, as they are self energizing. Their issue is loss of braking doe tô overheating since they don't shed heat as well. 

Ever notice Semis have all drums?

Yes sir, but the Lockheed type brakes are not self energizing.

They are non servo type, anchored shoes, they do not at like bendix type self energizing drums, which are a better design and still used to this day on the rear brakes for many cars.

The dual wheel cyl lockheed brakes re better than the single wheel cyl lockheed brakes too, and work very well when in a good state of repair.

Drum brakes were used on a  lot of big cars with power boosters for years and right into the 70s, so they work, maybe not as well as more modern disc.

[meadowbrook]

Why did they use Lockheed s then?

[Robert Horne]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 0:37 PM, dale said:

Is it possible to have too good of brakes no matter how you drive ?

Yes, I believe this is the reason for "anti lock braking systems"..........

[55 Fargo]

10 hours ago, meadowbrook said:

Why did they use Lockheed s then?

1924 first year for hydraulic Chrysler brakes, Well in the 1920s to 40s this was a great braking system, far better than Fords mechanical and Chevrolets eventual "Huck" brakes in 1936.

Ford eventually for the 39 or 40 years adopted their own version of a Lockheed hydraulic braking system, but did not use front dual wheel cyls, like Chrysler did, which is a big upgrade over a single wheel cyl brake.

These brake systems need to be set-up, and adjusted for best results, which brings in special tools and equipment to achieve this as we both know.

The bendix type servo self energizing, install and adjust, as long as drums shoes, hardware and hydraulics are in good working order all is well. There is no special equipment for adjusting shoes to a drum, a more superior system that all the big 3 followed before the advent of the 1970s disc brake updates.

 

2 hours ago, Robert Horne said:

Yes, I believe this is the reason for "anti lock braking systems"..........

Those of us who drive on snow and ice, as well as loose gravel, know this to be true, and you learn to brake accordingly, ABS brakes  now are designed to compensate for this type of driving environment...

[meadowbrook]

I still don't understand how a system with 2 wheel cylinders is better if the single cylinder design provides self actuation on one show and thus less effort to operate that a dual cylinder with no self actuation.

[55 Fargo]

35 minutes ago, meadowbrook said:

I still don't understand how a system with 2 wheel cylinders is better if the single cylinder design provides self actuation on one show and thus less effort to operate that a dual cylinder with no self actuation.

Well on non servo brake systems such as the Chrysler Lockheed brake systems, dual wheel cyls do the following, each shoe is independent and forces itself into the drum opposite of each other, making for a far better braking then a 1 wheel cylinder that only pushes the brake shoes out on the tops against the drums, as the bottom of the shoes are anchored to the backing plate.

Bendix type self energizing brakes force the shoes into  the drums, almost floating and the shoes move and seat into the drums, if I am explaining this right.

Lots of semi trucks have drum air brakes with dual wheel cyls for the front brakes 1 for each shoe...

Search on Google lots of good info, and even on this site.

Chrysler went to bendix type brakes in around 1962, as was the rage for the big 3...

Edited May 24, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[Robert Horne]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 11:10 AM, jeffsunzeri said:

Two items that have not been mentioned in this thread so far are vitally important to a modern braking system: Power boost and ABS.

Disc braking systems without power boost and without ABS are no match for even the worst modern braking system.

No doubt, a disc brake has much better potential than a drum system in many applications.

However, any poorly maintained system, disc or drum, is unsafe.

If you've got a properly maintained drum system (or disc) you should be able to do a panic stop from 45 or 50 mph and:

-- lock all 4 wheels, and keep them locked until fully stopped.

-- stop straight ahead.

-- examine the skid marks and determine that all 4 are locked, and most of the braking is happening at the front (biggest pile of rubber dust).

If your system can't pass those 3 items, you are in trouble. No reputable shop would return a car to the customer unless all those items were checked as good.

Another note is that once the wheels are locked, the brakes are done. It's up to your tires and the road surface at that point.

 

If you drive in snow, or wet roads, you will discover not to lock up your brakes, or you may go in a direction you do not want to go.

I prefer my non power assist brakes in winter, less chance of hitting the brakes to hard.

My modern daily driver truck with the power boost/ABS is a scary ride.     The brakes will not lock up, even when I try.

Pulling a trailer that does not have brakes is very scary.       My neighbor's truck is almost as bad.   He limped into my driveway with

no brakes, from a bad rear line.    The proportion valve did not kick in.      These modern brakes systems, even when new, are not

always what they should be...

 

[knuckleharley]

29 minutes ago, Robert Horne said:

 

My modern daily driver truck with the power boost/ABS is a scary ride.     The brakes will not lock up, even when I try.<<

My 06 Diesel 2500 4x4 seems that way. Scares the hell out of me. MY 2016 Chev 1500 seems to slow the truck down better even though it has smaller tires and also has ABS.

Quote

Pulling a trailer that does not have brakes is very scary.     <

 

 

My "car" trailer is actually a 5 ton equipment trailer that weighs 4,000 lbs unloaded,and the brakes on it work VERY well. They are electric,and I have a controller mounted up on top of my dash in my 06,and I also have the GM/Allison transmission brake that works like a charm to help me slow down when going down steep grades. The Allison transmission is the prime reason I bought the GMC instead of a Ford or a Dodge.

Edited May 24, 2017 by knuckleharley

[Robert Horne]

My 48 Dodge had the best brakes of any of the older cars I have owned.    

I installed a Mustang II master cylinder, the rest was stock,  worked great..

My 38 has front drum, and Ranger drum rear, Ranger master cylinder, has worked great the past few years..