265 Engine Rebuild Manual

[Matt Wilson]

Hi folks,

 

Does anyone know of a good rebuild manual for the 265 engine?  I have a manual for Chrysler industrial engines, which covers some of the 23" engines and the 251, but not the 265.  Considering that the 265 is the same as the 251, except for crankshaft and rods, maybe my manual will be sufficient.  I suspect all the clearances, bolt torque values, etc., would be the same, but I would prefer to get a good rebuild manual that includes the 265.

Thanks,

Matt

[garbagestate 44]

Hi, The industrial 265 is sometimes refered to as an IND 32. Most of the stuff is the same except that some have hollow exhaust valves filled with powdered sodium that goes liquid when hot to promote better valve cooling in stationary applications. Mine has pistons with three rings instead of four and the rings are a different thickness than the non industrial version but you won't know for sure until you take it apart. None of this is cut in stone. 

[dpollo]

The overhaul specs for the 265 are the same for the 251 .  Comments above are relevant. The 265 was also used in the Chrysler in 53 and 4.     A real stump puller of an engine, I put one in a 50 Plymouth.

[Matt Wilson]

Ok, I should make clear that I don't have the 265 engine yet, and when I get a hold of one, I don't know if it will be an industrial 265 or a non-industrial 265.  As a side question, I have read that the 265 and 251 industrial engines had some differences in bolt patterns at the flywheel and maybe the front and rear engine mount bolt patterns as well, when compared to the non-industrial 265.  Can you guys comments on that?  I'd appreciate any input you may have.

Also, to end up with a 265, I might convert a 251 into a 265 by swapping in the proper crankshaft and rods.

I just want to be sure the industrial engine overhaul manual I have is correct for any of the above variants of 265 (or converted 251) engines, or if not, then I want to be sure I can get the correct manual(s).  So with this in mind, please let me know if you have any other comments on the appropriate overhaul manuals.

Thanks!

Matt

[garbagestate 44]

I think the bolt pattern is the same on the front but I had to swap out the actual mount with the passenger car bracket. The one that came with the ind 32 had an application for a snow cat.(some kind of tracked vehicle seen at ski resorts and such). At the other end I had no problems mating the crank flange to the 1947 fluid coupling. It was pretty much plug and chug. 

[dpollo]

above comments are right on target. Converting a 251 to a 265 might involve relieving the block at the bottom of the bores to allow rod clearance.  Use a head from a Canadian 218 and get a serious compression boost without losing space around the valves.

[Don Coatney]

Very commendable that you are doing research on your project before you have it. Many buy first and ask questions later. Where have you looked for this 265CI engine so far? teThey are available but not always easy to find. Feel free to check out the engine album on my photo bucket page linked below. I detailed most all of my engine rebuild.

[Matt Wilson]

23 hours ago, dpollo said:

above comments are right on target. Converting a 251 to a 265 might involve relieving the block at the bottom of the bores to allow rod clearance.  Use a head from a Canadian 218 and get a serious compression boost without losing space around the valves.

David, your comment about relieving the block concerns me.  Looking at my torn-apart 230 in the garage, it looks like removing material from one side of the lower end of the bore would risk getting into the main oil passage that runs from front to back.  The other side (next to the looks a little less concerning, but could be getting into the bottom of the water jacket.  If the 251 is the same way, and if relieving is in fact required, then I may be hesitant to do the conversion.  I spoke with George Asche about doing such a conversion a couple of weeks ago, and he didn't mention anything about this, but it's possible that it's one of those details that he didn't think were important, which would be a good sign, I suppose, but I would probably want to touch base with him or Tim Kingsbury to see what they can tell me.  I'd like your input, too, though.

Also, with regard to the Canadian 218 head, that sounds appealing.  When you say I won't lose space around the valves, I guess you mean the flow characteristics won't be adversely affected, like they are when milling down a stock 251 or 265 head?  I've heard that this is a trade-off when milling down a stock head - you get higher compression but reduced flow of gases into and out of the cylinder, so that there's a sweet spot when you get the most power out the engine, and milling off more only reduces the power output, but with the head you recommend, I guess that wouldn't be a problem, as long as it hasn't been milled down too much?  What's the approximate range for the compression ratio that I would end up with?  I realize it varies depending on how much that head gets milled, how much the cylinder is bored oversize, whether I have a 251 or 265 crankshaft, etc., but I'm just looking for an approximate idea.

I will take a look at your site as well, as I'm sure there is lot of good info there.

 

Thanks!

Edited December 31, 2016 by Matt Wilson

[Don Coatney]

On one of my visits to George Asche I spotted this top end relieved block pictured below. I have no additional information on how or if there were any performance gains on this engine. It seems to me that any flow improvement would be lost with less compression.

[Matt Wilson]

22 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

Very commendable that you are doing research on your project before you have it. Many buy first and ask questions later. Where have you looked for this 265CI engine so far? teThey are available but not always easy to find. Feel free to check out the engine album on my photo bucket page linked below. I detailed most all of my engine rebuild.

Thanks, Don.  I'm trying to do my research first, so that I hopefully won't run into any surprises.  As for sources of these engines, I have looked around at a few places that specialize in these engines, and other places that specialize in Power Wagon and military Dodge truck parts (since this will go into my '49 Power Wagon).  I have not found anyone with a 265 yet, and only a few have mentioned having 251's.  On the other hand, 230's are readily available, but I'm trying to upgrade from that.  A local Power Wagon enthusiast about a half-hour away told me the other day that he has one or more 251's, so I hope to get a chance to look at them soon.  I'm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, so if anyone has any leads in the area, please let me know.  Don, if you have any suggestions, please let me know as well.

Thanks!

[Don Coatney]

This may or may not be helpful.

[Matt Wilson]

Wow, interesting picture of the top-end relieved block, Don.  If I get George or Tim in a conversation, I may ask about it, although I don't think I would ever do it to any of my engines.  I'm not looking to squeeze out every last ounce of performance and don't want to pay for that kind of custom work.  I'm curious as to whether George and his crew ever do any dyno runs on their mods.  I started doing a search on this site, looking for dyno results and only found limited info, but I didn't finish looking at all the threads that came up from my search either.

The head milling vs. CR table is great!  Only trouble might be in getting a good id on the head I end up with, to know if it's a Dodge, Chrysler, etc. and from what year, and how much that head has already been milled.  The head from my 230 say "D T" on it;  I suppose that may stand for Dodge Truck, and it has a casting number.  Maybe other heads have similar markings.  If there was a decoder for head casting numbers, that would be immensely helpful in conjunction with the table you provided.  Even so, I would probably have to CC the combustion chambers to find out what their current CR is, and then mill accordingly.

[Don Coatney]

To date I have not seen any dyno results from George Asche built engines. Pictured below are the measurements of a 251" Chrysler Spitfire head that I believe has never been shaved. But this is only my guess as to the originality of this head. Another forum member posted measurements from a similar head he believed to be original and his measurements were very close to my measurements.

[Matt Wilson]

Ah, very good.  I guess that's the measurement from the head bolt machined mating surface on top of the head to the gasket mating surface.  Do you think that would be the same dimension for all 251 and 265 heads?  Or maybe all Chrysler-made flathead 6 heads?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Matt Wilson

[T120]

On ‎2016‎-‎12‎-‎29 at 9:03 PM, Matt Wilson said:

Hi folks,

 

Does anyone know of a good rebuild manual for the 265 engine?  I have a manual for Chrysler industrial engines, which covers some of the 23" engines and the 251, but not the 265.  Considering that the 265 is the same as the 251, except for crankshaft and rods, maybe my manual will be sufficient.  I suspect all the clearances, bolt torque values, etc., would be the same, but I would prefer to get a good rebuild manual that includes the 265.

Thanks,

Matt

A copy of this manual, WM-4487, is now listed on ebay...Not mine.. I do have a copy myself. It is a very good manual and includes part numbers.

 

[Matt Wilson]

Thanks, Ralph.  My manual doesn't say anything about being a Canadian manual, or being for Canadian engines.  I wonder if any of the content is different.  Were the Canadian engines different from the U.S. engines?  For example, is there a difference between a Canadian 251 265 vs. a U.S. 251 or 265?  Thanks.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Canadian part numbers are many times different.

[dpollo]

 Just to clarify some small points:

There is no difference, so far as I know in the 251  265 engines between USA and Canada.

Some concern was expressed about relieving the bottom of the bore, I was referring to the area on the camshaft  side where it has already been relieved . I do not think it is an issue but it is worth checking when a crankshaft  with a longer stroke is to be used.

In the above illustration where the deck has been relieved, I can see no advantage there .  

[T120]

12 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Canadian part numbers are many times different.

I have in the past crossed part numbers between U.S. and Canadian manuals, In some cases I do have both manuals and found numbers to be the same. There are some differences  of course, for instance in regards to the P15 Plymouth U.S. and Canadian engines.The blocks are entirely different as has been noted in other threads...different lengths, while  Chrysler and Desoto blocks are similar to Canadian. I only have the Canadian Industrial manual and therefore I can't guarantee that there not differences in part numbers. As DodgeB4ya noted,depends on what parts you are researching... I will say the Canadian manuaI referred to is quite good...

[Matt Wilson]

Thanks, gents!

[oldasdirt]

23 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

To date I have not seen any dyno results from George Asche built engines. Pictured below are the measurements of a 251" Chrysler Spitfire head that I believe has never been shaved. But this is only my guess as to the originality of this head. Another forum member posted measurements from a similar head he believed to be original and his measurements were very close to my measurements.

I believe you will find the overall thickness of the head is not as relevant as you may think.  Different year spitfire heads are different thicknesses
 

On December-29-16 at 11:29 PM, garbagestate 44 said:

Hi, The industrial 265 is sometimes refered to as an IND 32. Most of the stuff is the same except that some have hollow exhaust valves filled with powdered sodium that goes liquid when hot to promote better valve cooling in stationary applications. Mine has pistons with three rings instead of four and the rings are a different thickness than the non industrial version but you won't know for sure until you take it apart. None of this is cut in stone.

 

On December-30-16 at 1:07 PM, Matt Wilson said:

Ok, I should make clear that I don't have the 265 engine yet, and when I get a hold of one, I don't know if it will be an industrial 265 or a non-industrial 265.  As a side question, I have read that the 265 and 251 industrial engines had some differences in bolt patterns at the flywheel and maybe the front and rear engine mount bolt patterns as well, when compared to the non-industrial 265.  Can you guys comments on that?  I'd appreciate any input you may have.

Also, to end up with a 265, I might convert a 251 into a 265 by swapping in the proper crankshaft and rods.

I just want to be sure the industrial engine overhaul manual I have is correct for any of the above variants of 265 (or converted 251) engines, or if not, then I want to be sure I can get the correct manual(s).  So with this in mind, please let me know if you have any other comments on the appropriate overhaul manuals.

Thanks!

Matt

There are lots of differences but in terms of the rebuild they should be the same.  There are multiple different cam patterns. There are different size valves and I have see 3, 4 and 5 ring pistons however in general the difference in a rebuild between a 250 and 265 is Rods, Crank and block clearance.   Someone's comment on a 230 is not relevant at all, in that they are different blocks, different design completely.   I was told by Tim Kingsbury that all 238/250/265 clocks after Sept 1951 have the block modification already done on them. The date code is cast into the block.

Ive rebuilt several 265s over the years and upgraded a 238 to a 265 and a 250 into a 265. The biggest thing I missed was the industrial engine has a much different cam pattern and for a truck or car it wasn't ideal.

I do know there is no difference between a 250 or 265 found in the USA and in Canada.  They are all made in Canada.

In terms of comments on Dyno Testing, I made the pilgrimage north this fall to Kingsbury's. I saw several dyno reports, both engine and chassis dyno reports and several more recordings of those engines.  As part of the agreement to see them, I promised not to reveal results. When I asked why, the explanation made perfect sense to me and they would prefer to stay away from the topic because people then get into wanting an engine built to a specific HP.  Or they want an engine with the same or more HP as one of the ones they have and the shear amount of extra time and labor makes it cost prohibitive.  I have actually talked to both of them and heard them say they didn't do dyno testing.  How the secret got revealed was during a tour of Tim's Dad's shop.  There was a very pretty multi-carb engine with 6 carbs and a highly modified block with 6 intake ports instead of the usual 3 Siamese ports. There was a slip of paper stuck in the top of one of the carbs and I pulled it out. There was a dyno report and my jaw dropped.  Tim was forced to discuss dyno reports as there in front of us was clearly a dyno report.

Last point, I think you were on the right track in talking to George Asche or Tim Kingsbury. I am not discounting anyone on this forum and what they have to say. I am sure there is some great information right here however those two are clearly the go to guys.

[Dodgeb4ya]

"There was a dyno report and my jaw dropped" ........

Please don't tease us.......inquiring minds need to know

[T120]

1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

"There was a dyno report and my jaw dropped" ........

Please don't tease us.......inquiring minds need to know

...Will this do ?

  Before                                                                                                                                                 After....

 

[Matt Wilson]

Thanks, oldasdirt.  Great info!  I can understand why they wouldn't want to tell people about their dyno runs, but it would have surprised me if they didn't do them for their own information.  After all, George has been racing and otherwise building up performance engines since 1949, so he and his crew have an interest in getting things right, and getting the most out of their engines.  And they sell components to folks who pay hard-earned money for performance parts, so again, it makes sense that they would have this stuff at least somewhat dialed in.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Matt Wilson

[dpollo]

If you have not read the article attached to the post about a 51 Desoto Suburban  above in this forum, I would recommend it strongly. It details what can be obtained from a 251 later rebuilt to 265 plus.     Very impressive.