Timing Problem. Looking for info please

[Dartgame]

You probably know this. But the reason your car is or was running hot is that the timing is way far retarded, 20 degrees is a lot, and will cause it to happen. I know this from past experience with v8s.

[DJ194950]

pontiacguy-

Easiest way to know which bolts need sealer on them with these motors?

If it bolts in the top, front water pump or sides of the block-put some sealer on the bolt. You can put it ones that do not need it but not the other way around. Or the Hard way- pull the bolts that leak one at a time, seal, reinstall. You'll get it water tight eventually.!

DJ

[fordkustom]

easy way or hard way? the easy way takes a lot more work? easy wasy remove front fenders radiator  pull the balancer pull the timing chain cover rotate until timing marks on cam and crank line up ( o and ^) remove dizzy and oil pump then put dizzy back in with rotor at 7 oclock line up oil pump slot to dizzy arm gently push oil pump back in (a second hand helps  alot to keep dizzy in right spot) be  patient if oil pump wont slip in pull and readjust until it slips right in with a slight twist of pump body not pushing the dizzy out. once the proper alignment of oil pump to dizzy bolt pump in place as well as dizzy. reinstall timing cover balancer should be right at tdc install radiator go through the static timing as mentioned several times in the forum.

hard way pull the plug above cylinder 6 place a 7 inch piece or coat hanger in hole and rotate motor until it comes all the way up and barley goes down go backwards just a hair so it is back up to highest point, pull spark plug one and check to see if both valves are closed if not repeat turning motor till that rod comes back up then barley goes down a hair back the crank up and check the valves at spark plug one for complete valve  closer, the pointer on timing chain cover should be right on tdc of pully/balancer note the location of rotor it should be 7 oclock if not pull dizzy  and oil pump repeat install as mentioned above ( dizzy at 7 oclock gently insert oil pump with slot lined to dizzy) this is the hard way due to the amount of guessing involved. do static timing procedure. this will get close but not as dialed in as the "easy way"

[DJ194950]

Well the "easy" way was before everything was put together for sure. A little to late now on the bolt sealing I agree.

DJ

[pontiacguy]

Well, here is the official update. The car is  named The Sprinkler" due to its annoying habit of leaking out every stinking bolt hole (yes I'm going to fix it). Thanks Dodge Brothers. I pulled the oil pump, moved it the one tooth, put the distributor back in and timed it. set it at about 2 degrees. ill let the chain stretch and let the car find its happy zone. Thing runs like a sewing machine, has a little vibration at idle in the car, but the engine is smooth as silk. the body is probably amplifying the vibrations. The reality is it runs just like when I got it (before I burned it up).

I am running AC Delco R45S plugs, but they tend to miss a bit. They are probably fouled to death. I always heavily top lube my engines when I build them. This one especially. It sat on the pallet I built for it for a year before I put it in. I was just too busy to finish the car.  I have a few odds and ends to wrap up and I will be driving it. I will post some pics in a gallery for all to see. Its pretty neat. Plaza Wagon. I have a thing for Wagons, convertibles, and manual transmissions. This car has 2 of the 3. I also have a soft spot for orphan cars and junk food. So I am going to drive my orphan, manual, wagon while eating candy bars and singing to myself (it has no radio remember!!). I am a bad singer.

 

Thanks all!

Chris

[DJ194950]

Remember the faster you drive on wide open roads and sing the better you sound! 

DJ

[Plymouthy Adams]

8 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

Remember the faster you drive on wide open roads and sing the better you sound! 

DJ

theoretically that may be true, but I cannot sing as fast as I drive...

[Don Coatney]

You might want to invest in a spark plug sand blaster. I got this one from JC Whitney several years ago for about fifteen bucks.

[Dartgame]

Glad you got it sorted !

Besides cleaning plugs you might want to switch brands- NGK plugs seem to be the most consistent. I tested a bunch.

You might also want to install a hot thermostat if not already. 180 or 195 F. I had a 160 in my coupe and noticed some slight misfiring. After installing a 180 F stat the misfire went away.

[pontiacguy]

11 hours ago, Dartgame said:

Glad you got it sorted !

Besides cleaning plugs you might want to switch brands- NGK plugs seem to be the most consistent. I tested a bunch.

You might also want to install a hot thermostat if not already. 180 or 195 F. I had a 160 in my coupe and noticed some slight misfiring. After installing a 180 F stat the misfire went away.

Thanks for the advice on the plugs. I had the AC's sitting in a box that's why I used them. I am running a 195 Thermostat. All in all the motor seems pretty happy. Of course now the stupid generator isn't charging . I will be driving this car next week if I have to carry a spare battery with me. Its still a 6 volt car. If the generator is shot I will change the fields and regulator and go to 12 V.  I don't like the alternator look on a 50's car. It looks wrong.

 

Also, I have a 354 Hemi lined up for the car. Time to start shopping parts for the next build. I am a bit concerned it may not fit in the engine compartment. THe 230 barely does. They had to recess the firewall to make room for it. So, time to search the forum for all the info I can find on this type of swap. I'll be talking to you guys lots more!!

[Adam H P15 D30]

I had to redo my inner fenders to fit the 354 HEMI in my 47, so expect that.

I would not go hotter than a 180 thermostat unless you run a pressurized cooling system.  Doesn't leave you a lot of wiggle room before it boils over.  

 

Adam

[pontiacguy]

4 hours ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

I had to redo my inner fenders to fit the 354 HEMI in my 47, so expect that.

I would not go hotter than a 180 thermostat unless you run a pressurized cooling system.  Doesn't leave you a lot of wiggle room before it boils over.  

 

Adam

HI Adam, thank for the feedback. Do you have a rough Width of your engine compartment SO I could compare to mine? Is it possible the dimensions are basically the same 47-54? I Sort of expected having to ditch the wheel wells and go to fender well hedders on the car. Its actually good news I can rework the inners to fit the Hemi.

 

I am running a 6 PSI cap on the car. Probably contributed to the sprinkler syndrome. I like the added margin the pressure adds. Especially here in TX.

[Adam H P15 D30]

I basically cut the shelf off the inner fenders and finished the lower sections, sorry I don't have a measurement but I will ATTEMPT to attach a photo.  The engine compartment dimensions on my 47 are pretty close to my 49.

195 degrees is too hot either way.  This isn't a smog motor, run a 180 with a 6lb cap and you will be much better off....

 

Adam

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Adam H P15 D30

[pontiacguy]

Thanks for the pics. You did a really nice job finishing out the inners. I absolutely love multiple carb set ups. I keep getting told to stay with a single 4, but I don't like the look. What intake is that? I see you are using the SBC water pump. Was that a space consideration? How are you to the rad now?

[Adam H P15 D30]

Thanks for the compliment on the inner fenders.  They are painted now and look much better.

Multi-carbs look nice but if you want to go fast a single 4bbl is the way to go.

I did the Chev WP for ease of parts availability and I wanted to clean up the front of the engine.  Its about 3" from the radiator now but I moved the firewall back 4+ inches.  Stock radiator fits around the front steer GM box with a little room to spare after a "slight" radiator support modification.  

Just an FYI, I think the HEMI would be a very tight fit with the stock front clip and steering.  I already offset it 1" and the GM frame rails are considerably wider than the Plym ones were.  See pictures attached and you get the idea.  I don't know how a box would fit in there???

The intake is an Edmunds 2X2 that they used in the Allard.  I have the 54 heads so I needed to run a wet intake, my choices are extremely limited!!

[pontiacguy]

ive been worried about the fit too. I don't want to clip the car. I went through your build post, saw you set it over an inch, that's got me worried too.

I want the car to be a period correct hot rod.  I also don't want to alter it. I don't plan to keep it forever and I want the next owner to have the option of putting it back to stock. So no modifying anything that isnt readily available or bolt on.  I am a machininst and engineer so I planned to design all my mounts to look like the factory hemi mounts on the Chryslers if possible. I know I am setting the bar pretty high for myself, a normal person would just clip it or go gasser on move on. Im into Pontiacs, so I aint right in the head anyway. The real time to be determining this was while the car was apart. But as I said, I aint right. Im going to keep an eye on your build thread, and keep doing my home work. Im not in a rush to start this as I just got the car together this month. Ill start collecting parts, taking pictures of other cars and driving it with the flatty. Every part on this car is worn out anyway, its is all original. I have plenty to do on it, as well as my other cars

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

Don't worry about offsetting to the right, Mopar did that for many years.  In fact, the driveshaft tunnel in my 47 is offset from the factory.  When I installed the Explorer 8.8 (which has an offset pinion from the factory) it lined up to the 47's driveshaft tunnel perfectly, your vehicle could very well be the same.  See photo 1

Since you're into Pontiacs, I'll attach a picture of a side project for a friend that kept me away from my Plymouth for some time, eye candy.

[Adam H P15 D30]

Also, a picture of the offset engine/trans lining up perfectly with the factory driveshaft tunnel.  So check to see if your driveshaft tunnel is centered, if not you either offset the engine to match or install it crooked.  I prefer offsetting

Edited December 19, 2016 by Adam H P15 D30

[pontiacguy]

pretty car, and yet you came back to the MOPAR camp.  Love the tri power set up. Those cars look really good in that color.

Ill check the tunnel. Thanks for the heads up, I never expected it to be offset.