Continuing OD Saga - Part II

[James_Douglas]

I decided to start a new thread as the last one was getting to long. I also have hit a milestone of sorts so...

Today I testing the car with the updated wiring, the new NOS relay, and the 2nd SOL that George had sent. When I tried it, it blew the 20 AMP fuse as soon as the Governor hit 27 MPH. Just like it did ever since he sent me the replacement SOL.

Well, I had run out of 20 AMP fuses, so I stuck a 30 AMP in AND changed to my NOS SOL. This combination worked. Note that a 30 AMP fuse blew with the old relay and the second SOL, it was not just fuse issue. I have a pile of blown 20 and 30 AMP fuses from last week.

Now do keep in mind that all the wire is new and better than you get in just about anything. I mechanically crimped and soldered all connections. I check every wire for resistance and all wires are below 0.3 ohms. I also used #8 wire for the SOL power circuit. Nothing smaller than # 12 was used anyplace.

The modern relay replacement for the mechanical kickdown switch works. Although it does not seem to want to work in 2nd over to 2nd normal. I think that the engine is not releasing enough torque to allow the pawl to back out. However, it seems to work in 3rd over to 3rd normal. It also worked, using Pete's trick, of running up in 2nd OD and then as I shift into 3rd press the momentary push button on the end of the shifter. It drops into 3rd normal as I let the clutch out.

I am going to stick Georges second SOL in the car in the AM with the 30 AMP fuse and see if it works or not. The books talk about the SOL using between 28 and 34 AMPs when bench testing them. However, I can not find anything definitive on what the factory said was the correct fuse size. I have seen a 1948 Studebaker factory wiring diagram that showed a 14 AMP fuse to the main relay. If anyone has an original MOPAR manual that has an OD in it, can you check to see what fuse the relay takes ?

Thanks, James

[eric wissing]

If I understand you corectly you are engaging the OD while in 2nd? I thought the purpose was for a higher gearing ( to act like a 4th gear). Just a wondering.Eric

[Normspeed]

It will give you an additional higher gear in second and high, any time you are over the solenoid kick in speed. Around town you can engage the OD handle, then leave stoplights in second, let off around 35 mph and you're in second OD. No real need to shift in local traffic. Goes back to second with no OD below 35 or so. Might not be so easy to start off in second unless you have the lower 4.10 rear gear.

[randroid]

James,

I have been running my OD tranny in my '48 P-15 for over ten years and have yet to wire it in because I figured out a way I could activate the kickoff switch but I didn't like the setup so it's never been wired-in. One of our forum members sent a pic of how he did his and that simple fix will be emulated after I get the car roller painted.

Anyway, when I bought the tranny from Neal Riddle he also sent a packet of booklets called "Service Reference Manuals". There are three of them, titled "Controls", "Operation", and Maintenance", each about 35 small pages and written for the 1952 Mechanic who didn't have the education of many mechanics today. After reading your query I broke them out looking for amperages and found none, but purely by luck on page 10 of the "Maintenance" book I found two paragraphs that give a hint to a possible solution to why would a good solenoid would blow a fuse and why would a new solenoid burn out.

I'm going to quote those two paragraphs and then interpret them as I will, then you'll know as much about it as I do. Here goes:

"When removing or installing the solenoid, you have to make a slight turn so the flats on the pawl rod will slide through the slot in the end of the pawl. That's what engages the rod to the pawl.

"As you probably know, the pawl rod has to be connected to the control pawl so it can move the pawl in and out of the control plate. If the solenoid is ever mounted on the adapter without making that one-sixth turn, the pawl rod will push the pawl into the control plate and keep the unit in overdrive. Making this slight turn is an operation easy to overlook."

Of course, whenever I bolt an electrical device into place, I always grab a Stilson wrench and try to twist it a little for good measure. I can see how the solenoid would burn if it wasn't allowed full movement.

What I'd like to do would be lend these booklets to you for a month or so and they aren't as dumb as they sound. They're New OEM Chrysler Corporation 1952 publications, and I won't be needing them back until August, if then. PM a snail mail addy to me and I'll get them out Wednesday at the latest. (Hell, I'm a Waiter and this is a big money weekend for me. After our snowed-in Winter, I got some coffers to resupply.)

Hope this helps.

-Randy

[James_Douglas]

James,

I have been running my OD tranny in my '48 P-15 for over ten years and have yet to wire it in because I figured out a way I could activate the kickoff switch but I didn't like the setup so it's never been wired-in. One of our forum members sent a pic of how he did his and that simple fix will be emulated after I get the car roller painted.

Anyway, when I bought the tranny from Neal Riddle he also sent a packet of booklets called "Service Reference Manuals". There are three of them, titled "Controls", "Operation", and Maintenance", each about 35 small pages and written for the 1952 Mechanic who didn't have the education of many mechanics today. After reading your query I broke them out looking for amperages and found none, but purely by luck on page 10 of the "Maintenance" book I found two paragraphs that give a hint to a possible solution to why would a good solenoid would blow a fuse and why would a new solenoid burn out.

I'm going to quote those two paragraphs and then interpret them as I will, then you'll know as much about it as I do. Here goes:

"When removing or installing the solenoid, you have to make a slight turn so the flats on the pawl rod will slide through the slot in the end of the pawl. That's what engages the rod to the pawl.

"As you probably know, the pawl rod has to be connected to the control pawl so it can move the pawl in and out of the control plate. If the solenoid is ever mounted on the adapter without making that one-sixth turn, the pawl rod will push the pawl into the control plate and keep the unit in overdrive. Making this slight turn is an operation easy to overlook."

Of course, whenever I bolt an electrical device into place, I always grab a Stilson wrench and try to twist it a little for good measure. I can see how the solenoid would burn if it wasn't allowed full movement.

What I'd like to do would be lend these booklets to you for a month or so and they aren't as dumb as they sound. They're New OEM Chrysler Corporation 1952 publications, and I won't be needing them back until August, if then. PM a snail mail addy to me and I'll get them out Wednesday at the latest. (Hell, I'm a Waiter and this is a big money weekend for me. After our snowed-in Winter, I got some coffers to resupply.)

Hope this helps.

-Randy

Randy,

Thank you for your kind offer. I have all 3 of the Chrysler books on the BW overdrive in PDF format and I have printed them. I also have the BW version which is about 20 pages. I also have a very unique auto electric book from a correspondence school from 1946 and it has several pages on the BW overdrive.

The SOL shaft engagement is fine or it would not work at all. The problem now seems to be the size of the fuse.

Do you have anything which definitively list the fuse size for the relay ?

Best, James

[TodFitch]

I finally dug out my 1946-54 Plymouth factory service and saw there is a chapter on the overdrive transmission. That book also specifically mentions the 1/6 turn:

"When installing the solenoid turn the solenoid 1/6 of a turn clockwise and insert it into the adaptor plate to engage the pawl. Rotate the solenoid 1/6 of a turn counter-clockwise to its normal position. Line up the whole and test the engagement of plunger with the control pawl by attempting to pull the solenoid out of the adaptor plate. See Figure 25."

Oddly, I don't see the overdrive circuit in the wiring diagrams in the back of the book. The only diagram I see is in the overdrive section. It does say "all no. 10 wire" for the feed from the horn relay through the overdrive relay to the solenoid. That diagram shows no fuse. But the body text elsewhere says:

"The circuit starts at the battery terminal on the horn relay. This terminal is used only as a source of current since it is part of a direct circuit from the battery and is hot at all times. The circuit then runs to the battery terminal on the overdrive relay; through a 20 amp. fuse; through the overdrive relay contact points and then to the No. 4 terminal on the solenoid. The circuit within the solenoid is grounded at all times."

So it seems that the fuse should be 20 amps, the wiring should be 10 gauge and there is a trick to installing the solenoid.

[Don Coatney]

James;

Did you make the change in the power supply we discussed on the phone?

[James_Douglas]

I finally dug out my 1946-54 Plymouth factory service and saw there is a chapter on the overdrive transmission. That book also specifically mentions the 1/6 turn:

"When installing the solenoid turn the solenoid 1/6 of a turn clockwise and insert it into the adaptor plate to engage the pawl. Rotate the solenoid 1/6 of a turn counter-clockwise to its normal position. Line up the whole and test the engagement of plunger with the control pawl by attempting to pull the solenoid out of the adaptor plate. See Figure 25."

Oddly, I don't see the overdrive circuit in the wiring diagrams in the back of the book. The only diagram I see is in the overdrive section. It does say "all no. 10 wire" for the feed from the horn relay through the overdrive relay to the solenoid. That diagram shows no fuse. But the body text elsewhere says:

"The circuit starts at the battery terminal on the horn relay. This terminal is used only as a source of current since it is part of a direct circuit from the battery and is hot at all times. The circuit then runs to the battery terminal on the overdrive relay; through a 20 amp. fuse; through the overdrive relay contact points and then to the No. 4 terminal on the solenoid. The circuit within the solenoid is grounded at all times."

So it seems that the fuse should be 20 amps, the wiring should be 10 gauge and there is a trick to installing the solenoid.

Tod,

Thanks for the info. I am using that very good #8 wire. However, I don't know about the 20 AMP thing. I will get some more 20 AMP fuses on Monday and see if the thing works. The other SOL, the 2nd one from George, did not work yesterday with a 20 AMP fuse. I will try it with the NOS SOL I have installed now.

The odd thing is that ALL the book sources state that testing the SOL with the plunger up against something hard to simulate the Pawl pushing against the control ring prior to dropping in , should see 28 to 34 AMP's.

If that is correct then how can the circuit work with a 20 AMP fuse ? Also, that does not account for the current rush-in.

That is the odd duck issue. I guess I will know more in the AM when I try a 20 AMP fuse with the NOS SOL.

BTW, The kick down in 2nd is working. I was coming up the hill past "The Cliff House" in 2nd gear OD and hit the button on the shifter and the thing dropped into 2nd without any hesitation what so ever. I guess it need to be under a load. When I tried it yesterday on relatively flat ground it did not want to shift down in 2nd.

Tod, one last thing. If you get a chance, would you take a photo/scan that page from your book. I am putting together a definitive collection of documentation on the BW-OD in one big PDF file. I would like to include it.

Best, James

[James_Douglas]

James;

Did you make the change in the power supply we discussed on the phone?

Don,

I have a 12" Number 8 wire going from the battery directly to the Relay. I have a #8 wire going directly to the number 4 post on the SOL.

See the wiring diagram in my first post.

Glade you had a good trip. I have photos and specs on the fan. I am looking around my desk as I write this for my notes and will post it shortly.

James

[TodFitch]

I don't see it in the manual but I wonder if that "20 amp" fuse should be a slow blow variety. As I understand it those can take a short term overload before blowing.

I will make a photocopy of the chapter on the overdrive transmission and forward it to you.

[De Soto Frank]

Tod beat me to the suggestion of a "slo-blow" fuse; ( if there is such a thing in the SFE-20 variety)...

Back in the days of plug-fuses in houses, we had to use "time-delay" fuses on things like washing machines ( and other appliances that had a high initial starting load (20 Amps or more)) which then dropped to only a couple of Amps once the motor was running at-speed.

If the solenoid traction coil draws bewteen 28 & 34 Amps( according to your period literature), then a 20 Amp "regular" fuse will pop every time... and I would expect that a 30 Amp fuse would pop as soon as the load exceeded 30 Amps...

If a time-delay fuse is not available, how about either a 40-amp fuse or a self-resetting circuit breaker ?(At least as a test option?)

It sounds like your wiring and connections are more than adequate.

( I am still of the opinion that getting a suitable ammeter test-set and checking the load-draws on your vehicle would be helpful, if you aren't "already there"...)

James, I wish I had an R-10-equipped vehicle I could measure and document for you...

Good luck...

De Soto Frank

[greg g]

40 amp self resetting breaker might be just the thing.

[Normspeed]

Slo Blow fuses or circuit breakers should not be needed if it's working like it should.

[TodFitch]

James, I mailed a photocopy of the overdrive transmission section of the 1946-54 Plymouth service manual to you on Monday. I would expect that you should be receiving it today.

[James_Douglas]

James, I mailed a photocopy of the overdrive transmission section of the 1946-54 Plymouth service manual to you on Monday. I would expect that you should be receiving it today.

Tod,

Got it, Thanks!

From Cars to Unix... The last 2 weeks have been very unkind to me technology wise....

James

[TodFitch]

Tod,

Got it, Thanks!

From Cars to Unix... The last 2 weeks have been very unkind to me technology wise....

James

Unix? I was under the impression that you were more inclined to run Windows servers. . . Going from Windows server management to Unix would be interesting.

Between running OS X on my personal machines and writing software for Linux based appliances I am much more comfortable in the Unix world. I avoid going into Windows where at all possible and only do so to set up Windows "host" computers when regression testing changes to our appliance software (required before committing changes to our source control system).

[De Soto Frank]

Unix? I was under the impression that you were more inclined to run Windows servers. . . Going from Windows server management to Unix would be interesting.

Between running OS X on my personal machines and writing software for Linux based appliances I am much more comfortable in the Unix world. I avoid going into Windows where at all possible and only do so to set up Windows "host" computers when regression testing changes to our appliance software (required before committing changes to our source control system).

Gee Tod,

Them's some perty fancy words... you sure there isn't a "flux capacitor" squirreled-away in that '33 Plymouth a' your'n ?

(Some gentle ribbing from the ultimate Luddite, here where computers run on anthracite...)

De Soto Frank

[TodFitch]

Gee Tod,

Them's some perty fancy words... you sure there isn't a "flux capacitor" squirreled-away in that '33 Plymouth a' your'n ?

(Some gentle ribbing from the ultimate Luddite, here where computers run on anthracite...)

De Soto Frank

No flux capacitors, but there is an electronic voltage regulator hidden away inside of the original generator.

Out here in California, computers are more apt to run on natural gas than on anthracite. And apparently my local electrical provider (PG&E) gets about 30% of its power from renewable sources. So I guess you could say my computers also run on hydroelectric, solar and wind.

[James_Douglas]

Unix? I was under the impression that you were more inclined to run Windows servers. . . Going from Windows server management to Unix would be interesting.

Between running OS X on my personal machines and writing software for Linux based appliances I am much more comfortable in the Unix world. I avoid going into Windows where at all possible and only do so to set up Windows "host" computers when regression testing changes to our appliance software (required before committing changes to our source control system).

Tod,

I loaded Fedora 7 onto an older Fedora Core 4 box I have. It ate the Fedora 4 install. So I flattened it and installed a clean Fedora 7. That worked except httpd (Apache) would not run not matter what I did. So I flattened it for a 3rd time and it works. I am using it to run TNG Genealogy software (Web Based).

However, I may move some more of my stuff from Windows to Fedora 7 as I like what the "gang" has done with it.

James