pulleys and belts for accessories

[DonaldSmith]

My 47 DeSoto has a single wide belt.  I got an alternator with a wide pulley, so I didn't have to change the crankshaft and water pump pulleys.  Now I want to add an accessory, in this case power steering pump.  

 

 

I have started a new thread instead of continuing this under power steering or upside down alternator threads since this might apply to an air conditioning compressor or whatever.

 

First scheme:  Convert to double groove pulleys at the crankshaft and water pump.  

Run the alternator and power steering pump each on it own belt.

Any sources for double groove pulleys to fit postwar Mopars? 

The crankshaft pulley has a 2-1/4" diameter hole and six bolt holes, one of them off center at TDC.  The water pump pulley has a 1-1/8" diameter hole and four bolt holes.  The center is offset about 1-3/4" from the far flange of the belt groove.  

The fan blades come within 1-1-8" from the back of the pulley groove, so there may not be enough room for two narrow belts. 

I may have to ditch the fan and reconfigure my pusher fan as a puller.  It's 12-volt, running off an auxiliary battery, so that raises 12-volt conversion issues.  

I may have to move the radiator forward to keep the belt-driven fan, which brings its own challenges.

 

Second scheme:  Run the power steering pump off a double groove pulley on the alternator.  An example of a bracket for an alternator and power steering pump show a double groove pulley on the alternator.  

 

 

Can the alternator take the additional stress of transferring power to the another accessory?  Has anyone done this?  

[Grdpa's 50 Dodge]

I am less than an expert and have never tried that but think it should be doable

 

Is there any way to tie this in to your existing belt diagram with one belt?  Even if an idler is used?

 

If that gets belt too long or just unavailable a double pulley on ANY of your pulley's should work.

 

If it does not you would not be out alot.

 

Even having another groove accessory pully welded or bolted to either the crank or water pump might do it also.

 

When the old M IHC tractors wanted live power or a loader installed they welded a sprocket on crank and bolted pump to outside frame rail and ran with a roller chain.

 

Obviously a roller chain is not right for your use but same concept of low hp engine running acc. it wasnt designed for.  Not alot of power required either the water pump,alternator/genny or power steer system off a low hp and revving engine.  Not like high hp hi revs of modern day systems

 

Hoping it all works out for you,,,it will if you persevere

 

I guess question is what size belt does it take to run your ps pump???

[navyboy]

just a question but why are you wanting to add power steering?

[Don Coatney]

just a question but why are you wanting to add power steering?

My best guess is to make the car steer easier especially when stopped or at low speed. But I could be wrong.

[DonaldSmith]

Don Coatney nailed it.  It's very difficult to maneuver this big car in parking or even in executing a U-turn with traffic oncoming.  I'm sure the radials contribute to the problem.  

 

But let this string address pulleys and belts for accessories in general, and let the power steering post will handle those concerns.  

 

Someone in the power steering string gave me some SBC pulley model numbers to consider, spc8963 and spc8952.  He had a machine shop enlarge the hole for the crankshaft hub.   Now we're talking; get something readily available and cobble it to fit. 

[DonaldSmith]

I went ahead and ordered double groove pulleys from yogisinc.com, the SPC8952 water pump pulley and the 501 crankshaft pulley.  I know that I will have to modify them, but when I receive them I'll decide whether to proceed or return them.  I hope that two belts will fit comfortably behind the fan blades.  Stay tuned. 

[DonaldSmith]

I canceled the order for the SBC pulleys.  They would adapt hard, and the water pump pulley had too much relief.

Instead, I ordered add-on pulleys, Spectre 4389, aluminum, Jegs No. 865-4389, about $42 each.

 

For the crankshaft, I can space the new pulley out from the existing, drill matching holes, and sandwich the new pulley between the old and the damper.  I can shim out the fan if necessary to clear the new belt, impinging slightly into the one-inch clearance between the fan and the radiator.  (I said "slightly".) 

 

The water pump pulley will be a let's-see.  If I can't adapt the new pulley to the existing, I'll just run the new accessory off the crank pulley.  

 

This way I keep the existing pulleys, and maybe even the existing belt, for the water pump and alternator. 

 

Thrills and chills every day...

[DonaldSmith]

Crank pulley installed,almost.  I bought a machined aluminum pulley for a small block SBC Chevy (I love total redundancies), knowing I would have to re-drill the holes.  I measured the existing pulley and balancer and made a template drawing.  I got a Spectre 4389 from JEGS for about $42, with free shipping.  Actually, I bought two, in case I screwed up the first one irretrievably.  So far, the second one is intact.

 

 

I trial-fit the assembly and trued up a few holes with a file.  I needed half-inch spacers between the old and new pulleys, so I cut some quarter-inch pipe and epoxied them in place.  I should have used JB Weld to really secure the spacers, but I figured they only had to remain adhered until the bolts were installed.

 

  

 

I bolted the thing together and looked good to go.  I would remove the nuts and bolt the assembly to the crank hub.  

Well, the balancer was so heavy I had a hard time getting the first bolt in,and knocked off a few spacers.  Also the TDC bolt hole needed to be chased with a tap.  So I inserted a guide pin ( a bolt with the head cut off and the end slotted for a screwdriver).

 

 

That would help, but tomorrow I will try this with a second guide pin.  There's very little space now between the balancer and the frame crossmember.  Do I really need that balancer?  I would have to put the TDC marks on a pulley.  Hmmm.

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

Here's the scene of the grime, with a pilot pin installed and a few spacers knocked loose.  I superglued them back into place.  I hope they hold long enough for me to get the bolts through.  Tomorrow I'll try again, with a second pilot pin. 

 

 

I have a line on a pulley for the power steering pump.  I bought a pulley at the Tractor Supply store in Oregon as I was passing through (Oregon, Ohio that is, east of Toledo), but I grabbed the wrong one, with a 3/4-inch hole instead of 5/8, and made for a wider belt.  The new crank pulley takes a 3/8-inch belt.  TSC had the right pulley in the bin above the one I grabbed.  I'll be passing through Oregon (Ohio) Wednesday, for my grandson's Confirmation, so I can switch pulleys.  Now, the keyway slot may be too big, but I'm not afraid to file a new slot to fit.  And I cut back the hub with its setscrew, to fit the shaft, which takes a large nut at the end to secure the pulley. 

 

Next is making a bracket for the alternator, which will use the existing pulleys and belt, and for the power steering pump, which will use the new crank pulley and new narrow belt. 

 

With the two steps forward, one step back, I am making progress, and I have three months till the DeSoto convention.  I plan to be done well before then, to leave time for shakedown cruises and tweaks.   

[DonaldSmith]

Second thoughts.  First I tried adding the new pulley over the existing, with the damper over that.  I would need half-inch spacers between the old pulley and the new.  It just didn't feel right. 

 

I had little room for putting in the bolts, a tight enough situation to begin with.  I decided to go with studs instead of bolts, so I can hang each pulley on the studs.  No pilot pins needed, which would have to be removed to get the last bolts in.  

 

So I decided to put the new pulley on first.

Studs thread-locked into the crank hub.  

New pulley  next, with the hollow face against the hub.  Nuts, to hold the pulley on, and to act as the necessary 1/4-inch spacers.

Old pulley and damper next, and then lock washers and nuts.

 

   

This moves the old pulley forward a half-inch, what I would have had to do with the previous scheme, so that the fan blade would miss the new belt.  With this arrangement, the old belt moves out, and the new belt is close to the engine.

 

So, I shimmed out the water pump pulley.  I reused the half-inch spacers, and JB Welded them in place.

 

 

So we'll run with this and see how everything works.  Whatever I do, it will be a pain to secure the damper and get the belts past it.  Now with the radiator out, it's difficult but not impossible.  

 

Question to the experts:  Do I need the damper?      

[Merle Coggins]

Where are your timing marks, on the pulley or on the damper?

[Young Ed]

They make solid disks to space the fan or pulley forward. I think I would find one of those before declaring myself finished.

[DonaldSmith]

I have the damper now, and the timing marks are on it.  It's just that the damper so thick and wide, that it will be more difficult than it was before, to get the belts on and off.  The damper is 5/8-inch more forward than it was, and the space around it gets tighter.

 

As it is right now, I'll have to put each nut in a socket to get it started on the studs.  (You know the trick, put a small piece of paper over the nut and jam the nut into the socket, so that the nut won't fall out.)  

 

I don't know if someone makes a smaller damper that will fit.  Or maybe I have to drill new holes again.  

 

For figuring out the belts and pulleys for the accessories, I can leave the damper off for now.    

[DonaldSmith]

Plan C: (or is it D or E by now?)

 

Keep the studs I put in.

Put the old pulley and the damper on next, like they were, with the usual clearance for installing the belt. (The crank should be at TDC so that the flats on the damper let the belt past.)  Install nuts to secure the damper and old pulley.

Add coupling nuts as spacers and for connecting the new pulley.  Shim with washers to be flush with the face of the new pulley.  

Bolt the new pulley in place over the damper.   This should be easier than trying to get the bolts in the dished in center of the damper.  And the new belt should go on easily. 

 

But:

Ditch the belt-driven fan, since the new belt will be in the way.  Rely on the electric pusher fan.  Maybe make it a puller fan if there's room.

This means that I'll have to keep the auxiliary battery charged.

Maybe eventually I'll consider getting a 6-volt fan, or converting to 12 volts.  ...eventually consider...  I think my plate is pretty full for now.

 

My head hurts.  I need a nap. 

[Don Coatney]

I modified my damper (skinneyed it up) when I installed the Desoto engine in my P-15.

 

[DonaldSmith]

I trial-fit the new pulley on the end of the damper and existing pulley.  Looks good, except that I won't be able to get the belts on and off without removing the new pulley, and that would an absolute pain with the radiator in place. 

 

 

Don C:

I would rather beat on the crossmember than mess with the damper.  You notched your crossmember for your DeSoto engine.  How thick is the crossmember there? 

[Don Coatney]

 

 

Don C:

 You notched your crossmember for your DeSoto engine.  How thick is the crossmember there? 

The half pipe I installed is thicker than the original cross member.

 

[DonaldSmith]

Thanks, Don,for the photo.  The thinness of the metal where I would cut is encouraging.  I only have to cut out the portion of the "scoop" in front of the damper.  Then I'll be able to change belts no matter which scheme I settle on. 

 

I'm favoring the scheme where I put the new pulley on first.  It moves the other pulley and the damper forward only a half inch.  Then I'll shim out the water pump pulley a half inch, and run the alternator off that belt.  The belt closer to the engine will run the power steering pump.  And I may even be able to keep the belt-driven fan. 

 

I just got a pulley from Grainger that will fit on the power steering pump with a few modifications.  It's a narrow belt pulley, which will work with the billet pulley I'm adding at the crankshaft.  ("Billet" adds bling, but for this car I'll spray everything black.)  

I'll shim the keyway of the pulley to fit the woodruff key on the shaft, and I'll cut back the hub to accommodate the nut on the shaft. 

[DonaldSmith]

Yesterday I cut a chunk out of the crossmember, using a drill, a hacksaw blade with a handle, and a Sawzall.  It was crude, but I managed to cut all the way around the area.  I discovered diagonal support members below, tack-welded to the chunk I wanted to remove.

 

Today I discovered that the two spot welds were accessible from underneath.  I drilled multiple holes in the welds and cut through them with a cold chisel.  Not so bad.    

 

 

Then I trial-fit the pulleys and found that the original wide belt just clears the diagonal support members that are left.  So I'll cut them down a little.  

 

 

Then I have to consider how to fill the large gap that is left in the crossmember.  

 

 

[Don Coatney]

That is the beauty of the half pipe.

 

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

I have a 1-inch wide strip left over from my power steering tee plates that is responding to treatment.  The strip will fill in most of the gap that I have made.

 

 

But I'm going to have to master my stick welder.  I've seen the guys on line stick-welding, and it looks so easy.  My efforts so far are more like fireworks.  

[Don Coatney]

Use of the correct rod is half the battle.

 

[BigDaddyO]

Practice, practice, practice.

[William Davey]

I suggest welder's gloves too.  

[DonaldSmith]

Actually, it's not a stick welder, it's a modestly priced wire welder.   I got a little practice on it today, but i'm still a beginner.  Here's the new filler and the scoop-shaped piece that I cut out of the crossmember. 

Be gentle in your constructive criticism.

I hesitate to spot-weld the filler in place.  I'll get a welding blanket to protect the surrounding area of the engine compartment from hot globs of flying metal.