Uncle-Pekka Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) This thread has hibernated a long time - just because so has my OD project. However, TODAY i pulled the 3-speed and the transmissions are now on garage floor side by side. Here's a photo a minute prior to pulling the 3-speed, inside the car with the front floor off. TWO PROBLEMS raised: The original box input shaft will not pull out -. as discussed in 2012, I need to swap my original input shaft to replace the newer Savoy short shaft. The input shaft of the Savoy unit came out with the bearing just by removing the 3 screws of the brg retainer. The fliud drive 3-speed unit input shaft only moves 3-4mm out and then stops. Can it be some synchro ring to fall in wrong position and stop it? GOOD ADVICE INVITED! - please! Another problem: parking brake assy is located further back on the OD unit. How can I mount the D24 brake drum and shoe assy behind OD unit?Some adapters needed? (I have a small lather to make adapter parts...) thanks,Pekka Edited February 28, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka Quote
Young Ed Posted February 28, 2014 Report Posted February 28, 2014 You might be in a little bit of trouble with your input shaft swap. There are two styles of syncros. One style allows easy removal from the front and the other doesn't. I believe Pete ran into this with his. For your parking brake can you not just extend the cable to reach and retain the OD parking brake? Quote
martybose Posted February 28, 2014 Report Posted February 28, 2014 It's been a long time, but my recollection is that the OD parking brake drum is unique to the OD transmission. I've no idea about the possibility of adapting a non-OD parking brake system to an OD transmission. Marty Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) You might be in a little bit of trouble with your input shaft swap. There are two styles of syncros. One style allows easy removal from the front and the other doesn't. I believe Pete ran into this with his. For your parking brake can you not just extend the cable to reach and retain the OD parking brake? Hmm, how do I remove "the one which does not allow easy removal"? I need to have them both out to figure the difference or similarity...right? The problem is, I do not have the OD parking brake. The unit came from salvage without any auxiliaries. Also the OD unit brake drum was worn out and cracked. When I compare the universal joint flanges (both good) they seem to be the same. Thus I wonder, could I modify the original D24 parking brake drum to fit on the OD unit? EDIT: Ed, I just re-discovered your thread "Overdrive up-grade". We touched the park brake difference briefly there - you suggested the problem could be overcome by using the OD unit brake drum. If, however, the OD drum is not available - any other way? Would you by any chance have photos of the 3-speed vs. OD brake drums to learn the difference? Cheers, Pekka Edited February 28, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka Quote
plyroadking Posted February 28, 2014 Report Posted February 28, 2014 1950 dodge with the short 3 speed trans and fluid drive have the same parking brake drum style that is oem for the od trans. Iv used them a few times when i buy a unit thats missing a drum, Quote
plyroadking Posted February 28, 2014 Report Posted February 28, 2014 Here is a picture of an od brake drum, the std brake drum is conical shaped at one end and thus the brake surface is about an closer to the front of the trans. Be sure and save the flange you have as the diameter of the hole in the od drums is smaller than the one on the std trans drums Quote
Young Ed Posted February 28, 2014 Report Posted February 28, 2014 Hmm, how do I remove "the one which does not allow easy removal"? I need to have them both out to figure the difference or similarity...right? The problem is, I do not have the OD parking brake. The unit came from salvage without any auxiliaries. Also the OD unit brake drum was worn out and cracked. When I compare the universal joint flanges (both good) they seem to be the same. Thus I wonder, could I modify the original D24 parking brake drum to fit on the OD unit? EDIT: Ed, I just re-discovered your thread "Overdrive up-grade". We touched the park brake difference briefly there - you suggested the problem could be overcome by using the OD unit brake drum. If, however, the OD drum is not available - any other way? Would you by any chance have photos of the 3-speed vs. OD brake drums to learn the difference? Cheers, Pekka The other style isn't unable to disassembled it just doesn't come out the front. It requires disassembling the entire unit. They be WAY back in the archives but see if you can find anything by blueskies. He might still have some of it posted on his website too. You could PM him too he still checks in on occasion even though his 50 has moved on. I don't have any photos of them by themselves but you can tell in this shot. The difference is the offset between the mounting to the back of the transmission and the band surface. Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 1, 2014 Author Report Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) The other style isn't unable to disassembled it just doesn't come out the front. It requires disassembling the entire unit. They be WAY back in the archives but see if you can find anything by blueskies. He might still have some of it posted on his website too. You could PM him too he still checks in on occasion even though his 50 has moved on. ... I don't have any photos of them by themselves but you can tell in this shot. The difference is the offset between the mounting to the back of the transmission and the band surface. I suppose the relevant question now would be: If I disassemble my original unit totally and get the input shaft unit out, would I still be able to use it in the '53 OD unit? If the two units are differently assembled, would the gear wheels be different, not interchangeable? 1950 dodge with the short 3 speed trans and fluid drive have the same parking brake drum style that is oem for the od trans. Iv used them a few times when i buy a unit thats missing a drum, Thanks for the tip, Roadking: Thus I need to find either an original OD unit drum or 1950 fluid drive unit drum. What about my brake shoe assembly - will I be able to re-use it with the OD unit, providing I will have a correct brake drum? Edited March 1, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka Quote
Young Ed Posted March 1, 2014 Report Posted March 1, 2014 Yes I swapped my rebuilt band over to the OD unit. I believe the drum and the bracket for the band are the only differences. I don't have a 52 parts book that shows overdrive but the p22 and d41 from 1951 show 1326790 as the part number. It does also show that band as fitting across the ply and dodge range for 51. 1 Quote
plyroadking Posted March 1, 2014 Report Posted March 1, 2014 If you od is really a '53 unit, it should have a date stamp on it where I've circled it in the picture, i would believe it to have the brass syncros, i have not ran into the pin type in anything newer than 1955. I would assume your stock trans would also have the brass syncros, you have to split the cases apart to change the input shafts when you have the brass syncros, its not that bad of a task, first you have to take the collar off the input shaft, 3 1\2" bolts, then pull the shifter cover off, 4 1/2" bolts, there should be two steel balls and two springs that fall out once you pull the cover off, these are the detints that keep it in gear. Next you take a flat head screw driver and unscrew the shaft that keeps the shifting forks aligned. Then you can unscrew the two bolts or screws that keep the forks attached to the rails, then you can drive the rails out the front of the case and pull the forks out. there are 4 bolts with 9/16" heads on them that thread into the trans case. You back them out and the cases should split apart, sometimes you have to pry a little, on the od you want to pry on the trans and the center plate, not the center plate and od housing. The cases should just pull apart with a little wiggling around the gears as they catch on each other. Next you have to drive the cluster gear shaft back a little, its the one you can see when looking at the front of the trans housing. You just need to get the cluster gear to drop down a little so you can squeak the input shaft out, i usually take a punch and slide it in as im driving the cluster shaft back, there are two thrust washers and some needle bearings that you would like to keep aligned in this process, there is a woodruff key on the back end of the cluster shaft that usually falls out as your driving the shaft back, you only need to back the shaft out about an inch. After you swap inputs its just a matter of reversing everything. The first pic is where the date is stamped, the second shows the alignment shaft that unscrews. The third shows the shifting forks, the forth shows where the cases should come apart on the od unit. The fifth shows the unit separated. The sixth is the location of the cluster shaft. The seventh is the woodruff key. The eighth is the thrust washers. And the ninth shows how the input mates to the cluster and why it won't pull out without dropping ths cluster. The last is the cable bracket that mounts with the solenoid, i had several spares made if you need one. Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 1, 2014 Author Report Posted March 1, 2014 Roadking, thank you for very thorough walk throught of the swap process. I belive these instructions will save my project. Yet I am thinking to simplify the process (possibly): What if after separating the transmission housing and OD, I would do the same with the original 3-speed and instead of pulling the input shaft would keep the input and counter shaft in their places and marry my original 3-speed with the main shaft sticking out from the separated OD unit? After all the 3-speed housings are the same and the counter shafts shoud as well be the same? Are there issues related to wear? - I mean; the gear wheels in each unit have been running against their mating wheels for 60+ years, thus they would better be married with original spouses than be introduced with cousins from the next unit? Regarding to the last picture, lever cable brackets - Yes, I will need one (do not have bracket yet) - The problem is, I'm overseas up north Finland, unless the bracet fits in an envelope, the shipping will cost quite much... No hurry, though, let me find out shipping alternatives first. Thanks, Pekka Quote
Dodgeb4ya Posted March 1, 2014 Report Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Continued.. BTW...Your countershaft washers are installed backwards- bronze goes next to the case, steel to the needle rollers. Good info though! Edited March 1, 2014 by Dodgeb4ya Quote
martybose Posted March 2, 2014 Report Posted March 2, 2014 Roadking, thank you for very thorough walk throught of the swap process. I belive these instructions will save my project. Yet I am thinking to simplify the process (possibly): What if after separating the transmission housing and OD, I would do the same with the original 3-speed and instead of pulling the input shaft would keep the input and counter shaft in their places and marry my original 3-speed with the main shaft sticking out from the separated OD unit? After all the 3-speed housings are the same and the counter shafts shoud as well be the same? (snip) If you are proposing to use the original 3 speed casing with the OD section, it won't work; the 3 speed casing is modified for the OD application with an additional hole to allow the OD unit to be automatically disengaged when you shift the transmission into reverse. Marty Quote
Dodgeb4ya Posted March 2, 2014 Report Posted March 2, 2014 Here are the OD front case differences.... Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) If you are proposing to use the original 3 speed casing with the OD section, it won't work; the 3 speed casing is modified for the OD application with an additional hole to allow the OD unit to be automatically disengaged when you shift the transmission into reverse. Marty Ok, do I need to move all the guts from my 3-speed to OD unit housing? I do not expect the 3-speed input gear wheel to match with the '53 OD trans synchro, if the synchro is big enough to stop the input coming out as per Kings photo shows. Below some pictures of my parts: - the date stamp on the assumed '53 OD unit. I cannot translate this to any year, to me it reads "7 13 54 K OD PT" last digits may be also RT or DT ? - what does this tell to you? Then the OD unit with the short input shaft on: View into the OD unit gear box with the input removed: The OD unit input g/wheel close up: The OD short input shaft removed: Compare to my original fluid drive input shaft (sitting tight on the 3-speed unit) My rough sketch of the dimensions of the fluid drive input stick out (dimensions are in mm) The stick-out total lenght from gear unit housing face (ca.292mm) is 11,5 inches - right? Edited April 4, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) Finally the original D24fluid drive parking brake drum (outside diam. is ca. 148mm roughly 5"27/32) 10 splines on the shaft. Edited April 4, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka Quote
plyroadking Posted March 2, 2014 Report Posted March 2, 2014 The date translation is July 13th 1954. At least thats what I've been assuming, my 40 Plymouth had a 40 stamped one it, and ive pulled several od units out of cars and the last two digits matched the year of the car. You are correct that you have two different styles of syncros, you will have to rob the syncros and brass syncro hardware from you std trans and swap them over to you od trans. Ive interchanged them before when i converted one for a guy several years ago with your same problem. There is a big snap ring that keeps everything on to the center shaft, remove it and all will slide off. Slip the brass syncro stuff on and you should be back in business. The od cable bracket should fit in a padded envelope. Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) I checked USPS and Fedex flat rate overseas parcel costs and came to conclusion, I probably will NOT afford to buy the park brake drum from there. (postage cost $75..100 !!!) No need to mention these are not particulary common over here, thus the third alternative is to fabricate one by myself. Shouldn't be too difficult a task, providing I would know the dimensions of a drum. I made the below sketch of the fluid drive negative offset drum. (dimensions are metric, it took me 2min to do it with a caliper, taking the dimensions roughly) If any of you gentlemen would take time to do similar sketch of the OD type of a drum, I would do a amateur cast and turn a drum for me. Edited April 4, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka Quote
plyroadking Posted March 3, 2014 Report Posted March 3, 2014 I will bring my calipers home from work tomorrow and measure one up Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Posted March 7, 2014 Up-date: Started making a cast pattern for the drum. Will leave generous machining allowance to adjust the axial location. Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Posted March 17, 2014 The cast pattern is almost made, however, I begun to worry to leave TOO MUCH turning allowance, the cast may be porous way inside... Thus I woud really need to know the offset distance from the propeller shaft flange inner face to the rear axle end of the brake drum outer shell. Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted March 23, 2014 Author Report Posted March 23, 2014 (edited) the cast blank I intend to turn for a new brake drum... This is aluminium instead of cast iron, but I trust it will do the job all the same. Edited April 4, 2014 by Uncle-Pekka Quote
Uncle-Pekka Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Posted April 4, 2014 next step turning the blank. What is the outer diameter of a new brake drum? 5,9 " ...? Quote
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