Valve Condition

[JohnTeee]

We join John in his continuing saga of exploration of new waters, also known as, 'The Engine Virgin' . . .

In this weeks adventure, valves are in hand . . .

I can see why the valves were giving me problems. They are coated with a tarry, shellac material. Shellac from the old gas that did not combust and collected? Vavlves are cleaning up decently with a wire wheel to the tops and bottoms of the valves and paint thinner and a rag to the stems. I'm finding:

The exhaust stems have a mirror-like finish.

Intake stems are a little more worn.

The tops of the valves have some 'micro' pitting.

The edges don't appear to be, 'sharp enough to shave with'.

The seats look pretty good; will probably benefit from a little lapping.

Is the difference due to the shellac wearing on the intake stem surfaces? Any reason not to put these valves back in after cleaning?

In the pictures below, you can see a dirty intake, exhaust and cleaned intake. The other picture shows the tops of the valves.

Cheers!

John

[Rusty O'Toole]

The tarry material is likely oil residue from oil that was sucked up the intake valve stems and burnt. This is more or less normal.

You can tell if the valves are burnt or warped by examining the seats. They should be smooth and flat, if they are rutted or not making even contact the valves need to be ground in or replaced.

Another factor is valve stem wear. Slip the valve into its guide and "shake hands". Sideways movement should be practically non existent, any movement means the guides need to be knurled or replaced.

Best solution is to let your local auto machine shop inspect, replace parts and grind the valves and seats as necessary.

Valve springs. They lose their tension over the years. To tell if they need to be replaced line them up like little soldiers and put a straight edge ruler on top. They should all be exactly the same. If any are bent or short, replace the set.

[Don Coatney]

I bought new valve springs. If I recall they were about three bucks each but I do not recall the source. Possibly Vintage Power Wagons.

I also installed shiverlay valves in my engine. The keepers are different than stock Mopar.

[ptwothree]

Don....What model/engine did your shivy valves fit? What mods were necessary to work in your motor. Would these work in a 218??

[james curl]

I put stainless steel Chevrolet exhaust valves in my 218 when I rebuilt it. I believe all of the Chevrolet exhaust valves used in the 235 and 251 Chevrolet sixes were the same as the small block V8s. They come in two diameters, 1.50" and 1.60" which are close in size to the intake and exhaust on the 218/230 engines. The seats will need to be enlarged slightly to fit the valves and you must use the Chevrolet valve keepers.

[martybose]

If those silvery looking valve springs are plated, I would not run them!!!! I bought a brand new, unused set of them, put them in my car, and over a period of 3 years no less than 3 of them broke. I then replaced all of them with a set of unplated springs, and they've been fine ever since.

Marty

[Don Coatney]

If those silvery looking valve springs are plated, I would not run them!!!! I bought a brand new, unused set of them, put them in my car, and over a period of 3 years no less than 3 of them broke. I then replaced all of them with a set of unplated springs, and they've been fine ever since.

Marty

I believe they are plated. Been running for six or so years, over 40,000 miles, and no problems to date. I have wound my engine close to five grand a time or two.

[Rodney Bullock]

What I learned from my engine builder is there is no such thing as a chevy or mopar valve. He said the size is what matters. When he built my Studebaker 289 motor he had to enlarge an area on the head. He then used a valve that fit. he said there are valves that each auto maker used as a stock part however you could use anything you needed as long as the port and head would accomadate it. i think it's like boring a block. Once you do it you use the proper size piston and ring for the block. He did suggest a type that would be more durable. I remember him testing to see if the valve hit the piston. Then he calculated the compression by the thickness. My memoey is not that good, All i know is the motor runs:)

[JohnTeee]

@Rusty - thanks for the good information. Those suggestions will get followed tomorrow, or the next day.

@Don - I think you may have committed a sacrilege! Cheby parts in a MOPAR, indeed! <grin> Thanks for the pic's of your valves and springs.

Cheers!

John

[Plymouthy Adams]

Don's got no chebbie parts in the DeSoto engine..to be chebbie parts they would had to be first installed in a chebbie block..but to use a part made most likely by TRW and have your head cut to those specs is alternate engineeering..if they were made by GM Don would not have the miles he has on that engine...it would be broken down..I still have to stick by my thoughts on GM..and its pretty much runs directly in line with the name of the founder of GM..William C. Durant..where the C is "Crapo"

[OldDad67]

You do know that Chrysler and GM share a common transmisson, and if I remember right wasn't Autolite a Furd product? Don't forget the Saginaw steering gears in Furds. I think there's more sharing than most people know, or want to admit.

[james curl]

Now I am not being smart but for the average person who goes to a Summit, Speedway, or Jegs catalog its easier to look up Chevrolet exhaust valves by head diameter. Most people do not have a listing of manufactured valves by length, stem diameter, and head diameter to find a part number to order the parts. While the actual parts are made by a vendor other than GM they are sold in retail stores as Chevrolet exhaust valves. You would need industrial catalogs such as Mc Rays or Sweets to find the hardware you are looking for whether it be valves, pistons, piston pins, rod bearings, etc. made to a SAE standard.

[Plymouthy Adams]

with all due respect James if I were going to modify an engine and upgrade to something a bit more common or larger for performance sake and want to stay close to what was stock in way of length, diameter etc..then this is exactly how I would go about looking for my valve..this is just an example of what is out there for quick refernce..

http://www.mellingengine.com/Portals/5/Valve%20Progressive%20ID%20Chart%20291-293.pdf

and for the record..there are other parts you can searchin the sam manner...it is lots easier to do this than say go to a big box store and say can I mic this or can I mic that ..maybe at night when late and no business you may get some help doing it that manner..

[OldDad67]

Tim that's great information on those valves, thanks for sharing.

[james curl]

Well Tim I will Apologize for my post but I did not know Melling made valves so I could not have looked on the internet to find the information. I guess I could have searched internal combustion engine valve manufactures to see what I would get before making the post. I never intended to mic any valves as the catalogs list Chevrolet small block exhaust valves by head diameter. After Don in one of his original post posted that he used stainless steel Chevy exhaust valves I did likewise when I rebuilt my engine.

[Plymouthy Adams]

James..no need to apologize...as you said, I do things a bit different..I often go to the books for modifications and such and reference pages like this make things so so easy...I did not post the other sister page to the Melling site but once you get you part number by size you can plug that number in and get a list of all engines that made use of that particular valve..My local store is a big help but no way could I see them letting me pull all the valves in stock out of boxes to mic the parts...it is good that when it comes to my retro fitting engines and such they allow me in the back to match up preformed hoses..so far my luck has ran good doing this..as I usually mock up using old hoses and cut and curve, duct tape as needed then carry that in for a match..I also have an account with my local that makes phone ordering parts a breeze..I also get good service and a place to go over the paper books to match things to my special applications..

I have not been able to find the same data for pistons..though Siverlite I believe list their pistons by specifications..I have not been privy to that booklet..would surely like to go over that one at least once....I have rumors of pistons that are perfect matches..but so far no specs and I have not tore down the suggested source to mic a piston..

[Plymouthy Adams]

can't believe this..in the past I could not find this data..look-e-here

http://kb-silvolite.com/silv-o-lite/spistons.php?action=diam

[Don Coatney]

Here is a quote from my friend Mark Hudson from a posting on another forum that should be of interest. Here is a link to the entire thread.

http://olskoolrodz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14538&highlight=slant+piston

does your head actually say "Spitfire"?

If so, you have the "long block" chrysler flatty. Mopar made two versions of the flathead inline. One was 23" long (as measured by the length of the head) and the other was 25" long. The "short" engine had a 3.375" bore with some earlier versions being 3.250. The "long" blocks were 3.438" bores.

The short blocks were usually in Plymouth cars and Dodge trucks up to 1 ton. The "long" blocks were in chrysler and desoto cars in the "top of the line" models.

For the "long" blocks, the Spitfire is as good as it gets as far as heads go. That was the maximum effort head mopar produced for it. I really haven't devoted alot of time researching long block heads to know if some obscure application actually had a better chamber than the "Spitfire". There isn't many variations in long block heads, other than a lower compression "no name" head and the slightly higher compression "spitfire" head.

The little flatties, different story. I think I have 5 different head castings - and not two of them are alike. One is 33 vintage (yes, the little flatty goes back that far!) - and its cavernous. The '58 truck head on the other hand, is pretty tight with a dang generous transfer slot between the valve pocket and cylinder. I can run down the casting #s if somebody wants them.

If your engine has the Spitfire head, I'm pretty sure its a 251 flathead rather than a 231. If it is a 231 - that's pretty rare and you immediately need to seek out a 251 or a 265 crank. The reason being, that's a longer rod than deeper stroked engines - but has the exact same journal diameter. If memory serves me correctly, you can use a slant six piston with the long rod/longer stroke setup. Slant six pistons have a slight wristpin offset and can be lightly decked in a lathe to suit your deck height - the wrist pin diameters are the same.

The other difference in the long and short engines are the rods. The rod journal diameter in the short engines is 2.00", the long is 2.125". Rod lengths differ according to stroke, the longer the stroke - the shorter the rod. All mopar flatty pistons had the same compression height at 2.00". A quick and nasty hop up is to offset grind a 265 crank back to the 2.00 rod journal of the short engine - netting you an easy .125" stroke.

so, the maximum bolt together mopar flatty - without getting very complicated would be:

Long mopar flathead block @ 3.438" stock bore. Use a 226 slant six piston with .060 overbore netting you a finished Bore of 3.460". 226 slant piston has a compression height of 1.750 and the wristpin offset - you want the offset in the direction of crank rotation.

Long mopar "Crown Marine" crankshaft (265 CID) @4.750" stock stroke. Offset grind the journals .125" to get the stroke out to 4.875" and use the rods from a 217CID "short" block mopar.

End result, poked and stroked flatty mopar on the cheap - off the shelf slant six pistons and very light custom machine work around the block deck/piston head. Everything is off the shelf and you get a whopping 3.460" bore x 4.875" stroke = 275 CID of bone wrenching torque.

Crown Marine cranks are not junk either - forged steel and can take lotsa punishment.

Whenever Don Coatney shows up on the scene, and I'm sure he'll chime in here shortly. He can fill you in on Edgy Cams and Edgy Finned aluminum heads, as well as aftermarket intakes for the long blocks. There is more available every day for the flatty mopar - short or long.

Most agricultural engines were the "short" engines. Some higher capacity combines (Oliver) used the "long" engines. Make sure you measure the head and know what engine you are considering buying. 90% of the ag/industrial applications I've seen were the "short" engines. Airport tow tractors and some heavy payloaders had the long. Moral of the story - always measure the head!

Stick with the ol' flatty - she'll do you right.

Hud

[james curl]

Tim, thanks for posting the link to the valves and the pistons. When I tried to look up valves on the internet all I got was a company that had them made in China. Every listing on the page ended up going to some Chinese plant. Now I am trying to find shackle bushings for my rear springs locally and no luck at any of the parts houses in town, their warehouse is out and does not know when if ever they will reorder. Tried the internet with even less results, so I guess it's to Speedway, Jegs or Summit to try to find bushings.

[Plymouthy Adams]

It is reported James that the poly graphite bushings for the A-body Mopars work very well for our old 40's-50's Mopars..I have a set of these in the 51 Plymouth wagon..

also the stock rubber rear bushing were listed on the Advance website as a Beck-Arnley supplied items..

the poly bushings are a bit costly but I think you will like their performance and longer life..

[JohnTeee]

Verving away from the original topic <grin> but I just saw this the other day: NAPA may have the part you are looking for:

Part Number: NCP 2748850

Product Line: NAPA Chassis Parts

Attributes:

Dimension A I.D. : .503"

Dimension B : .812"

Dimension C : 1.26"

Dimension D O.D. : .855"

Cheers!

[james curl]

Thanks John, I will try thy nearest NAPA to me which is 30 miles away, or I will probably just order them from NAPA online. I do not figure the NAPA nearest to me will have them in stock. Tim said that the A body MoPars bushings should fit but I do not know for sure if the A body is the Dart/Duster size cars or not so I will just probably go with NAPA online.

Edited November 4, 2011 by james curl
correction