buying titles?

[41/53dodges]

does anybody know about those guys you see at car shows selling titles for $100 apiece? my 41' has no title, and the PO is long gone. i talked to the DMV a few weeks ago, and apparently they make you trace every owner back to the dealer now, which is impossible for a 70 year old workhorse, so now these titles you buy are looking pretty good. does anybody know about these or their legality? for $100, it does seriously sound too good to be true...

[41/53dodges]

thats my question, their legality. i can interpret your answer to it being illegal, but these are sold as intended for use on hobbyist cars, regardless of legality. i still honestly think they're too good to be true, but who in their right mind would pay $100 for a title that is unusable and only can be hung on a wall?

[mrwrstory]

[B]In California, there was an Attorneys General investigation of purchased titles. It was in conjunction with efforts to limit the registration of Specially Constructed Vehicles i.e "Kit Cars". The term was applied to any vehicle made up from parts,...no matter their origin. The investigation found (as I recall) two operations in New York and one in Florida who were selling counterfit titles. I believe they have been shut down and one is under inditement.

Alternatively,...in California, if you have a legitimate old car and there are no liens on record, a title, "pink slip" can be issued by providing a "Bill of Sale" and submitting to an inspection to verify the VIN number. I'm sure you could come up with a Bill of Sale. You might investigate that option.

Edited May 19, 2011 by mrwrstory
no edit

[41/53dodges]

[B]In California, there was an Attorneys General investigation of purchased titles. It was in conjunction with efforts to limit the registration of Specially Constructed Vehicles i.e "Kit Cars". The term was applied to any vehicle made up from parts,...no matter their origin. The investigation found (as I recall) two operations in New York and one in Florida who were selling counterfit titles. I believe they have been shut down and one is under inditement.

Alternatively,...in California, if you have a legitimate old car and there are no liens on record, a title, "pink slip" can be issued by providing a "Bill of Sale" and submitting to an inspection to verify the VIN number. I'm sure you could come up with a Bill of Sale. You might investigate that option.

as much as i would like a legit title, wisconsin has literally made it impossible to get a title for anything vintage. i almost think i would get in less trouble keeping it on the backroads and just driving it around than trying to get the papers...

[jcmiller]

Do you know who is recorded as the owner by DMV and is that person available to you? It looks like the registered owner can easily get a replacement title in Wisconsin. Then they could transfer it to you.

[Young Ed]

Laws for all 50 states on titles. Looks like there's a form in there to fill out to get a title in WI. I suggest you talk to someone else and try again.

http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=62843#tag-title-toolbox-2011

[oldmopar]

Get the title and try to run it through the dmv is only a $100( about 2 tank of gas in todays world) if they process it and give you a title you win if not you have a historical document to hang on your wall. The trick with most dmv stuff is go when they are busy, do not talk much just give them the paperwork and see what happenss. Is it legal well its a work around to a system that is not friendly to old cars.

[Captain Neon]

One needs to realise that these are not reasonable logical intelligent beings that we are dealing with. These are bureaucrats. Any thing out of the ordinary and they will push back to get you to go away. They don't know the answer and they don't want to do any extra work to find out.

Until we make it easier for them to help us, they will not do it. The laws that they are supposed to enforce were written by clueless politicians, slap on top of that law changes, regulation changes, and it simply boils down to doing what makes a bureaucrat happy. There is a way, they can do it, you just need to figure out which forms they want, and how to stroke their egos.

There is no thing written down that hasn't been written an other way to contradict or make exceptions. When dealing with the motor vehicle registration, some times it just means going some where else and dealing with a different bureaucrat. IMHO, car clubs need to help their members, esp. the less experienced guys in maneuvering the hassles of vehicle titling and registration. I can guarantee you that there is some one in your community that knows all the ins and outs of getting a vehicle registered with minimal trouble and fuss. The problem is, who is he and how do I get to meet him?

Personally, I've only had one problem titling an antique car and that was because the bureaucrat mistook the title number for the VIN. I, now, always make a photocopy of my title that I keep until my new title comes. Check everything before you get up from the table or sign any thing. It is easy to fix then, but a real pain to try and get a bureaucrat to fix it later.

[Captain Neon]

The trick with most dmv stuff is go when they are busy, do not talk much just give them the paperwork and see what happenss. Is it legal well its a work around to a system that is not friendly to old cars.

Good advice. I might add, look like you know what you are doing, and be polite. More than likely, this is some one's sensitive spinster daughter that you are working with. If she was as no nonsense as one of us, she would be working at the factory and making more money.

[Fluid drive]

In some states they can /will consficate the vehicle if they stop you and the numbers do not match--VIN and title. In many places it is possible to obtain a title through the state by going through the motor vehicle dept. I have been that route in th epast; I had to post a bond and wait while they researched the numbers to make sure no leins or record of theft existed. Then a DOT officer visited me and verified that the car I was registering was in fact the car they were issuing the tags for. Then I was able to get a legal and matching title.

Fluid Drive

[jcmiller]

Even if you can fool the DMV with an old title (which I doubt), what would be the point of having a title with a VIN or other identifier that does not match the car?

Also, as much as we all hate needless bureaucracy, and the fact that dealing with the DMV can be painful and time-consuming, there is a reason behind giving careful scrutiny to title issues. I would not want someone to be able to hotwire one of my old cars, drive it down to DMV, and easily get a new title. (Although it would be great if someone actually could hotwire my cars and drive them. )

[austinsailor]

Laws vary widely from state to state, and some of the reason is local car club's involvement in the legal processes. It can vary from the difficult situation in Wisconson, which doesn't even have a bonded title processes, to Texas, which has a widely used one, to Kansas, where you only need a bill of sale for any car 1949 or older.

Missouri has provisions for "Hot rods", which is a vehicle that resembles a vehicle made before 1949, and "Classics", which is a vehicle resembling a vehicle made 1950 to 25 years old. doesn't matter when you put it together or if it is a new "kit car". It only has to meet the safety and emmissions of the year it resembles, not the year you built it.

How did this come about? Car club involvement in the political processes.

If you don't like the rules, organize, join a club and get active with the guys in the Capitol who have you by the balls

[Captain Neon]

The take home message, however, is never buy a vehicle one intends to drive if it doesn't have the title. Store titles in a safe place, and transfer promptly after purchase. Too often we choose to save a buck, and it ends up costing more in the end.

[41/53dodges]

The take home message, however, is never buy a vehicle one intends to drive if it doesn't have the title. Store titles in a safe place, and transfer promptly after purchase. Too often we choose to save a buck, and it ends up costing more in the end.

okay, is dinner for the farmer an adequate price for a paperless truck? although, he does certainly like to eat...

[austinsailor]

capt neon is lucky. With nothing more than a handwritten bill of sale he can get a title for anything 1949 or older. So a paperless truck there is a silly oversight.

They have a similar system for boats without regard to age. I have a lot of boats with a Kansas history.

[Young Ed]

The take home message, however, is never buy a vehicle one intends to drive if it doesn't have the title. Store titles in a safe place, and transfer promptly after purchase. Too often we choose to save a buck, and it ends up costing more in the end.

As someone who had to get a title for both his 46 and 48 the lesson should be-be aware of the laws in your state before you buy.

[austinsailor]

Times - and state laws - have changed. It's now many times that cost. Or it was 2 years ago, and may no longer be possible. I did one through them about 2003, quick, easy and cheap. The last was in the works for $225 about 18 months ago. But before they got it the law changed and they had to find a new method. New quote was $450, I had them send it all back and got a Texas bonded title.

Certainly give them a call but if you have one needing a title don't just plan on one day using them. Might not be an option, or may not in the future.

Many states have bonded title programs but they may not be well known.

[BobT-47P15]

Do you know who is recorded as the owner by DMV and is that person available to you? It looks like the registered owner can easily get a replacement title in Wisconsin. Then they could transfer it to you.

Often times, with an old car--especially one that has sat for many

years--it's impossible to determine the previous owner. However,

sometimes you get lucky and can do as suggested about a replacement

title.

I got lucky when buying the 49 coupe. The seller didn't have the title as

the previous owner had temporarily misplaced it. By the time I came

along, P O had found the title......so I drove to his home about 25 miles...

and had he and his wife sign, then he handed it to me. No worry about

getting it into the mail, etc.

I don't know how or when they did it, but some even earlier owner had gotten the

numbers used on the title changed from engine number to the one on the door post.

I was happy to leave it at that as that number will remain constant when an engine

is changed.

Edited May 20, 2011 by BobT-47P15

[1947PLEVY]

Here in Tn. There would have been alot of hoops to jump thruogh to get a title...Unless the P.O. signed an affidavit stating as to why he didn't have the title. In my case the title was lost in a tornado some 35 yrs ago and the car was from Georgia.. with that one document everything was smooth as silk:)...

[adam_knox]

Hey mate, former Wisconsinite here,

About, 7 years ago in WI I had purchased a moped with no title. I contacted the DMV and they said I had to fill out a form and then a board looks at the application for a missing title and approves or denies it. So I filled out the form, I had to list any previous owners I knew of, and the most previous owner had to sign it I do believe (or I included a bill of sale, can't remember). Then I had to have a police officer come and verify the VIN. The police or DMV then do a search on the vehicle to see if there are any reports of the vehicle missing. You mail in the form, wait 6-8 weeks and keep your fingers crossed. Of course I have no idea how it woulda turned out because someone stole it the day before I was to mail out the form.

Good luck, but whatever you do, look into all the options and potential outcomes. Would hate for a "historical" title to wind you up in trouble with insurance and stuff if you ever got in an accident. I would do something sooner rather than later as they always make new laws, they hardly ever get rid of laws.

[JerseyHarold]

To try and title a vehicle using a non-matching piece of paper that you bought is sheer idiocy.

One way to get an 'in' with someone knowledgable on DMV rules is to ask local dealers what title service they use to process their paperwork, then speak to that company.

Another route is to check the regulations concerning abandoned vehicles or mechanic's liens in your state. In New Jersey, for example, you need to run an ad for three times in a local newspaper and complete an affidavit stating that the previous owner abandoned the vehicle and the circumstances involved. Upon review, the state issues a title in your name. Towing companies do this all the time when they haul a car that the owner doesn't claim.

[Jim Benjaminson]

After reading all these posts, as someone who works extensively with these types of vehicles in the course of my employment, first thing I can say is - don't try to use a title that the VIN/serial number doesn't match. Thats fraud pure and simple and can get you in a lot of trouble. Yes, there are a couple of title services, most from the southern USA and I believe one out of New York (not sure if any of them are still in business). They worked on the premise of "send me your money and serial number and we will send you a title from whatever state we're operating out of". Then you transfer that title to your homestate. Don't know the prices but it wasn't exactly cheap. As stated earlier, every state is different. If the previous owner is deceased, there should/could be a probate record at the local court house. Also, there should be someone who has legal authority to sign off a title that might be held in the estate papers or to issue a bill of sale. Once you have the bill of sale, most states will require either someone from DMV or a police agency to inspect and verify the numbers on the car. Remember, a LOT of states used the engine number as the VIN, not the actual serial number plate on the door post. The engine number can be found stamped into the frame on nearly all MoPar products from at least 1930 up to the late 50's. Remember also - if there is paperwork - someone might have used any number they found on the car, from the engine number, body number, parts casting number, etc. I'm working on two situations as I write this - one on a Model T Ford that the inspector used the casting date as the serial number and on a GM product that the inspector used the firewall plate as the serial number. So do your homework - call the head office at your state capitol and ask them specifically what they want. I've found over the years that dealing with the "head shed" is much more productive than dealing with branch offices. Branch offices are privately owned and charge a fee for each transaction....I shudder when people tell me they are going to our branch offices or have been to the branch office. I've sent people with all the proper paperwork and had the branch offices turn them down. There are no easy ways around some of this but as I tell the guys in our local car club -- old Bubba in the backwoods may have given you the car 30 years ago but after you've spent big bucks restoring it, you don't want Bubba's nephew showing up with a title saying "this is my car...."