Calling all you body men - I need lots of help

[gnoub1948]

Well, got back to working on 'Bobo'. I'm replacing the passenger side A pillar. The drivers side worked out great. This side is not. I cut the old A pillar out and placed the new piece in. Left lots of wiggle room this time. I used a new body mount pad and bolted the A pillar down. There are three locations. The front cowl mount (no pad); a side mount with a new body pad; and a floor mount that bolts into the frame. On this side, although I braced the body up good so I thought, I had to 'lift' up a little on the body (maybe an 1/8th) to get the correct distance between the hinges. The old pillar slips in and out incidentally. Anyway, I have a template for the distance between the upper and lower hinge mounts and also one for the fender body mount holes. I Lined everything up as best I could and and tacked a piece of bar to hold the lineup tight. My fender mount template and some vice grips hold the rest. Got the door back on and crossed my fingers for the line up.

Well, the body lines are nice. But the door gap is non existent at the B piller. And a bit tight at the roof line. I looked at the tacked in A pillar and the side is out about an 1/8th out. Seems like when I line this up, the door fit will be worse??

Hopefully the picture shows the gaps. I used my cell phone. Also, the lower corner of the door hits the B pillar long before the rest of the door touches anything. The other picture attached shows that when the body lines are flush, the door from the body line down is in about 1/4".

When I bought the car, this door never really worked since the hinges and hinge pins were rusted off. So I have no real idea as to the fit before this surgery. Again, the drivers side is very good.

This car will be a rod. I have no intention of trying to make it perfect. It's so far gone now, its almost not worth doing but.....I still am. I would like to get the doors to at least line up reasonably well. I'm thinking I need to lift another 1/16th maybe. But I'm stumped right now concerning the B pillar door gap or lack thereof.

So, any thoughts anyone??

Thanks!

Gary

[55 Fargo]

Do you have the hinges on the a pillar and mounted to the door, or is this sitting in place, to check for fit.

I would think if you have no space along the B pillar latch post, then the A pillar on the right cowl must go forward.

Did you take measurements, prior to the surgery, measuring to check for correct fit, well at least close.

You will want to shoot for a 1/8 ich gap along the B post.

If you have the hinges in place, are they adjustable, are they bent, or out of whack.

Can you use a hydraulic body jack, and force the A post annd cowl corner forward.

I am no bodyman, by no means, but this looks like the A post must go forward, unless you have a problem wit the hinges.

Is the gap or lack of along the B post at least uniform, or is there an angle space difference from top to bottom.

There is enough know how on here I am sure to help you along with this.........Fred

[gnoub1948]

Fred, the hinges are attached. I bought a good set from a yard in SD. I cut the old pillar out leaving the top hinge section in place. The lower section is the replacement. The new pillar has enough room to just slide in place and bolt onto the mounts. On the surface, this should be very straight forward. The drivers side was for the most part. Having to bend the body to make things fit is telling maybe the car was in an accident and something was bent.

[dezeldoc]

These cars were not perfect from the factory, most of the time you need to "finesse" them to make them right. if you have put everything back in place and did your best to get the gaps in place and even as they will go, tack it in place in a few spots and try and re-adjust it again and get it as close as you can. if need be you will need to tweek it the rest of the way. also don't for get to put the fenders back on and also check those for fit.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I would say you are sagging in the rear...this will give you the limited room at the top and allow the bottom and back edge of the doors gap to be non exisitant...it is not a good idea at the time of welding to have the body bolted to the frame...I personally have found it best to have the rockers supported the entire length with a heavy piece of angle iron affixed to a 4 x 4 This will allow you to support the entire wieght of that side of the vehicle and being on steel angle iron surface easy to shift the body where you need it. The working of the pillars and rockers whould be done with the door affixed if at all possible so you can make minute adjustments when welding..the opening is very susceptable to shift when heat is applied...

[55 Fargo]

These cars were not perfect from the factory, most of the time you need to "finesse" them to make them right. if you have put everything back in place and did your best to get the gaps in place and even as they will go, tack it in place in a few spots and try and re-adjust it again and get it as close as you can. if need be you will need to tweek it the rest of the way. also don't for get to put the fenders back on and also check those for fit.

This is a for sure, don't think the manufacturing was as precise as more modern times.

I cerainly had to finesse my 47s body, could have been a lot better, but not being a bodyman, what should I expect...........Fred

[gnoub1948]

Tim, thanks for the comments. The floor is missing as well as the rockers. I actually have a back half body replacement (B pillar to trunk) that needs to go in. Maybe that will help me align everything. I have the body braced every which way with the bracing supported by the frame. I was thinking that since the body was sill mounted to the frame and the bracing everywhere, I wouldn't have a sagging issues. Again, the drivers side came out very nice.

Maybe it's time for a BFH and a jack???

[gnoub1948]

Tim, what confuses me is why the body lines are so good if the back half is sagging? I guess it's the amount of adjustment in the door hinges that makes that possible?

To further the madness, I'm wondering what's the best way to get this back half attached? I surely don't want to cut through the rear window. I think next time I'll just buy a whole car instead of pieces to sew together!

I'm developing a great respect for real body men!

Gary

[Young Ed]

Gary the resto shop that did my dads convert also did an extensive restoration on a 48 ply convert. He put in a whole back 1/2 like you and doing and he did all the welding down the strip where the trim goes.

[gnoub1948]

Young Ed, right on the seam or above or below? Above the seam are the trim holes.

Gary

[Plymouthy Adams]

no big hammers needed...keep the door in place..shift everything to get the opening correct about the door...you may need to hang the front fender to ensure correct location of the front pillar...only thing I can say about the other side coming out right is that it may have been a bit more solid than the one you are having trouble with...if you determine the pillar is a bit rearward, use the body mounting ear of the frame to jack the pillar opening by wedging inside the kick panel area as this will allow you to keep the door in place..be sure to watch not to bow the body wide here..a second chain with turn buckle may be need to prevent this..actually...if you will be replacing the inner and outer rocker you can address this at that time..this is where the flat piece I mentioned earlier will support the entire unit while putting the inner panel in first then the outer rocker..even with this..there may be a place here or there that use of carpender wedge shims may be needed to hold a area correct while welding in place..again..leave the doors on and check opening often...I have done this on a number of cars including convertibles without roof support..proper technique and sequence of event will get it done...keep in mind that this is not a race...it will take time and patience..

body sitting on the frame even new from factory is critical to torque on the bolts for alignment and door issues..do not over torque these even when complete and finished..

Edited January 11, 2010 by Tim Adams

[Young Ed]

Gary he welded right down the center of the trim holes.

[gnoub1948]

Tim, I still a bit confused as to the jacking technique of the A pillar. Also, right now the piece of new A pillar that I set in is inline with the original top portion of the pillar. The new A pillar section I mounted in is below the upper hinge mount holes, and I'm lined up with the upper portion. I'm sticking out to the side a bit but vertically flush.

I'm thinking that since I need to somehow widen the door frame width an 1/8th and 'lift' the whole right side roof like an 1/8th the culprit might be, in spite of my bracing, the lack of a body mount at the B pillar (the floor is completely rotted away there) which may have caused the 'sag' before I even started working on him. I didn't lift anything when I braced it up, I just braced it as it sat.

Since I have a new rear end section (with a floor) to mount in too, most likely I'm wasting my time until I get that mounted, but I don't think I should even try that until I have the A pillar firmly in place. I tell you its hard not really 'seeing' this in your head. I'm a trial and error guy....and that adds lots of hours to my endeavors.

What if I get the A pillar lined and mounted; raise the right side roof line a bit (like a 1/16th) and brace that will tubing using the frame as a support; then cut out the rear and add the new rear end with new body mount pads, and then attempt to align everything while the body mount bolts are just loosely installed?

Gary

[Plymouthy Adams]

My scenario above in regard to your A pillar included the operative word IF, you must make that measurement and answer the alignment for that section. But in my experience the lack of the rear door opening combined with an improper top gap will require jacking/shimming at the rear...this is also the need for a JIG to support the body during the work, I use the method posted earlier as it will also allow support for shimming if it is required...the door opening stands out like a sore thumb..a minute amount will never be noticed when spread about the entire length of the rocker/body side..minute adjustments to maintain the correct opening may require shims..these shims are use to maintain the lower door/sill gap as irregularites in the very bottom weld seam of the inner /outer rocker could have a slight taper...before shimming however ensure the car is not experinecing a sag (crown in the rocker bottom center) if sagging, the rear of the body side will require an adjustment to the rear...pulling this section rearward along the top of the angle iron of the jig will in fact pull the B pillar up increasing the top gap allowing you to align proper.

Anyone taking on a rocker panel repair inner or outer or both for that matter would do well to ensure the door is aligned to the front fender, top roof line, b-post and door sill prior to any work begins. IF not, align prior to any cut/weld activity. (be sure your hinge pins are not adding to your problem) LEAVE the door in place as this will be your guage to ensure the work being done can be checked at any given time simply by opening and closing the door..removing the door striker help you as you are never latching..only guageing the opening during your process. I recommend the inner rocker first..do not full weld both ends till you are satisfied with the gap wen fully installed.

Pictured is the lifting/support jig as used and when finished standing by the car..hepefully this should give you a general idea of how and why of this device..I have used this jig on two cars..I have two of these built, one for each side..they are invaluable for lifting a car off the frame also..except for a station wagon, there is no point along the rocker to maintain balance of the entire body like the sedans..they be butt heavy and require a third jack and I use an inflated spare tire to jack support the rear when lifting

Edited January 13, 2010 by Tim Adams

[gnoub1948]

Thanks Tim. My car is void of rockers and floor so I may have some issues but I see what you mean.

Gary