Major Rust Surgery Help

[gnoub1948]

Here's my next challenge: I'm working on the lower B pillar where it meets the rocker on my 2 door '48. The whole lower area from the B pillar to the fender well is shot. The rockers (inner and outer) are rotten and the sill plate above that is rotten; not to mention the floor that butts up to the body panel on the inside. There is very little for a new floor to attach to at the moment. I'm now thinking I need to cut out the whole section from the inside of the fender well to the lower B, including part of the floor. It looks like there is a body seam on the inside of the fender well. I was thinking of using that seem as a mark and cut through the seem and entire 1/4 panel inside and out; remove the complete section and rebuilt it. I have a new 1/4 panel outer skin and I think I could recreate the rocker and sill plate and something for a new floor to attach to. Of course getting that back in and aligned would be a nightmare. This would be major surgery and I'm freaking out at the whole idea. I could kill the whole project doing this. Has anyone tackled this kind of work or am I the only crazy that thinks you can actually restore a rusty, creator filled pile of metal that was a beautiful S11 at one time?

I'm not sure what else to do. I've never done this before. I'm not afraid to start cutting, but it would be very nice for some experienced help. I know this is most likely a really bad idea, but it wouldn't by my first one. The dumb thought is that I could make the repairs much easier on the bend than on my back.

The picture below makes the area look much better than it is. Suffice it to say, the floor is shot; the rockers are gone and the sill plate is like a sheet of tissue paper. Right now, even with a new floor, there isn't much to attach it to where it would meet the inside of the body panel. HELP!.

[greg g]

Joel Torres just posted a bunch of pictures detailing a similar area of repair on his car. Go to his profile page and click on his posts. I was in the Tractor Supply Compay the other day and noticed they have two or three styles of sliding door tracks. these are formed pieces up to 10 or 12 feet long. they are galvanized steel so the coating would neet to be ground off where any welding needs tobe done. If you have a TSC or similar, you might wan tot take a a look ath them for possible use as the rocker structure. Joel used square tubing I believe. these pieces have a shape to them that resembles the original bends.

[gnoub1948]

Thanks. I was actually at Tractor Supply today looking at things. I saw the parts you mention. I'll keep them in mind.

Gary

[Joel Torres]

HERE IS THE LINK TO MY PROJECT PAGE SEND ME A MESAAGE IF YA NEED HELP

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346922

[gnoub1948]

Well, I came to the conclusion that cutting out the whole area was a bad one. So, I just started cutting out cancer. Of course that's basically the bottom 6 inches of the whole car. But, at least now I know how some of the parts were put together. I think I'm going to cut out the inside of the 1/4 panel; blast it and coat it with something to halt the rust (is that possible?). I really need to recreate everything. Fixing the rear fender well should be easy, but the floor will be a challenge.

Gary

[greg g]

Before you start cutting on supports (like laod bearing beams in a house) some bracing should be istalled to keep things supported and square as you patch stuff in.

[Joel Torres]

yup on what greg said

an easy way to do it is get cheap emt grind where your going to weld at clean and weld a make shift roll cage from side to side and across the door from a to b pillar so that the body dosn't twist or move around

now they sell the rockers for your car (two door) did you know?

if that to pricey then you can go the route i took as i had less metal then you for rockers

i used 2x2 steel and my rock is going to be a skin i have bent up that will weld to the 2x2 if you see my build page it will make more sense

[Fireball]

Some pics of my rust repairs (scroll down for rocker and floor area)

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=11865

[gnoub1948]

I have a cage brace inside that I made from 1 x 1 square tube and some angle iron. It's ugly but seems to work. I had rockers on order but there seemed to have been some productions issues and after a long wait I decided to just do it myself, and use the money I saved to buy some metal tools. I'll follow Joel and Jeff's plan. The entire floor has to be rebuilt as well. I think I can salvage the tunnel but that's about it. The rear floor is the part that scares me. There's a lot of different bends and shapes and not much to use as a template. Then there's the trunk and tail plane, and side panels, and on and on!

Thanks for the help.

Gary

[gnoub1948]

Fireball, I have noticed that you guys in Finland have great fabricating skills. There's another guy in Finland named Jyrki that I follow. He's doing a '46 Buick. I have a '50 in my shop that I want to work on one day, hence the interest in his site.

This is the first car I ever tried to 're-create'. I rebuilt a Corvette race car that I crashed, but that was easy compared to this. I've burned as many holes in the metal as I have successfully butt welded, but I guess learning the hard way is the best. Some guy's actually can 'see' what they're doing. I have to stare and stare and think and think, and I'm still lost! Anyway, I have a couple of questions:

What gauge metal are using for the outer skin, 18 or 20? Are you using weld through primer anywhere? What primer are you using when coating the repairs, etching or epoxy?

I could ask 100 more questions, but I won't.

Thanks!

Gary

[Joe Flanagan]

What I did on mine was to only cut apart one side and leave the other one intact so I could use it as reference. It saved my behind. I welded angle iron in across the door openings to keep the body from racking and I supported the roof with a stud wall made of 2X4s. I took out everything that was bad and rebuilt using the intact side as a guide. If things were rusty and I wanted to use them to weld to, I just blasted them in place. Newly blasted surfaces should be treated with a phosphoric acid solution like Picklex 20, which can be found at www.autobodystore.com. I've been using the stuff throughout my job and it's great. Your cross braces look like they're still OK. Probably need to be blasted clean though.

[gnoub1948]

Some progress for anyone that's interested:

Well I managed 5 hours in shop today before my back said to leave, and I was able to get the remaining cruddy floors out and clean up some stuff. I'm sure I made plenty of errors. But, the body is braced the best I can with the metal I had. It feels solid and worked fine when I cut the entire drivers A pillar and cowl out (see pic), so I think I can freely cut without fear of sagging. But like I said, it's ugly.

One of the many issues is the lack of metal integrity in body mount areas. The trunk mount on the driver's side is basically non existent (see pic). Joe, I've planned to take the car to a place in Va and have it blasted while on the frame. I'm afraid though that there will not be much left of key metal. I keep thinking I should cut the junk out first and then try to recreate what's missing. I guess I'll know for sure what's left if I blast first.

The drivers side floor has nothing to weld to and the body mount bracket that attaches to the fender well (see the pic) is weak.The same holds true for the inside panel that's just dangling in the picture. A lot of it is OK, but I'm not sure it could take any welding. I think it will just melt.

I was thinking of trying the 2 x 3 tube idea for recreating rockers, but, where would you attach this to provide enough strength (see pic)? Seems like you need more that just 18 gauge metal at each end. Guess I better go back and review those posts.

Anyway, thanks for the reply's.

Gary

[Fireball]

Fireball, I have noticed that you guys in Finland have great fabricating skills. There's another guy in Finland named Jyrki that I follow. He's doing a '46 Buick. I have a '50 in my shop that I want to work on one day, hence the interest in his site.

What gauge metal are using for the outer skin, 18 or 20? Are you using weld through primer anywhere? What primer are you using when coating the repairs, etching or epoxy?

I could ask 100 more questions, but I won't.

Thanks!

Gary

Hi Gary, you are absolutely correct, learning by doing is the way. I use 1mm steel, that's .040" , closest to 19 gauge I think. But 20 is just fine. The red primer that I use which is visible in pics comes from a German company named Wurth. I'm not sure what would be equivalent product in US but it's great rust preventor and can be welded also quite good. That goes into bottom and then epoxy.

BTW I know Jyrki and his Buick, we chat a lot back in the day when I built my '52.

[gnoub1948]

OK, I see what Jeff and Joel have/are doing with the Rockers. My turn now.

Fireball: Do you have any pictures of your '52?

Gary

[Fireball]

Sure thing Gary, I did it mild custom style with airbag suspension.

Geez, Fotki refuses to co-operate again. Well go to my homepage at http://www.angelfire.com/mo/racevaliant/ and click "Entiset lelut" link on bottom of the page and you'll see the Buick among some other cars done by me.

[Joel Torres]

I was thinking of trying the 2 x 3 tube idea for recreating rockers, but, where would you attach this to provide enough strength (see pic)? Seems like you need more that just 18 gauge metal at each end. Guess I better go back and review those posts.

Anyway, thanks for the reply's.

Gary

sorry i have been busy but i am keeping an eye out for ya

the 2x3 worked like a charm i freaking love how strong it is

i didn't have anything to attach to so i made my attachment points i didn't cut the outter skin right away cuase i used it for a reference point my pictures show it all do not hesitate to ask here we will all help ya

[gnoub1948]

Thanks Joel. I need to go back over your pictures!

Gary

[knuckleharley]

Well, I came to the conclusion that cutting out the whole area was a bad one. So, I just started cutting out cancer. Of course that's basically the bottom 6 inches of the whole car. But, at least now I know how some of the parts were put together. I think I'm going to cut out the inside of the 1/4 panel; blast it and coat it with something to halt the rust (is that possible?). I really need to recreate everything. Fixing the rear fender well should be easy, but the floor will be a challenge.

Gary

I bought new rockers for my P-15 that look pretty good,and the price wasn't outrageous. Send me a PM tomorrow morning (I'm a idiot with zero memory) to remind me to get the address for you and I'll even take photos of the new rockers so you can get a idea of what you would be getting.

No,I am not 100% positive the DeSoto and P-15 rockers are identical,but I'd be shocked if they weren't. Other than length,of course.

You can also buy the inner rockers new. If you buy both you will have solved most of your fabrication problems.

[gnoub1948]

KnuckleH:

Are you talking about Plymouth Doctor parts?

Gary

[knuckleharley]

Gary,here are the photos of the rockers I bought. You aren't that far from me,so feel free to come down and look at them in person if you want.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1237/rockerpanels002.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4658/rockerpanels.jpg

I bought them from:

Classic Parts

29120 Badelt St

Westland,MI

48185-2531

I haven't had any luck finding a phone number or web address for any business with that address,so I can't help you there/

[knuckleharley]

KnuckleH:

Are you talking about Plymouth Doctor parts?

Gary

Maybe. I bought them from a company in Michigan and THOUGHT I was buying them from the Ply Doc,but the box said it came from Classic Parts in Westland,Mi.

Ply Doc is in Perry,MI.

[gnoub1948]

Classic to Current Fabrication is a company in the same city. They only sell outers at $30 each. For that much I'll take a chance. Plymouth Doctor parts are a lot nicer and are like $700 for inner and outer panels. I'd rather have theirs but will take a look at these.

Gary

[knuckleharley]

Classic to Current Fabrication is a company in the same city. They only sell outers at $30 each. For that much I'll take a chance. Plymouth Doctor parts are a lot nicer and are like $700 for inner and outer panels. I'd rather have theirs but will take a look at these.

Gary

I see nothing wrong with the ones I bought. I suspect they are slightly thinner than the original steel,but haven't miked them to make sure.

[Joe Flanagan]

I used the outers from JC Whitney. They're quite a bit thinner than the original sheet metal, which worried me but you're only using short sections between the posts and when they're welded to the inners and to the floor, they're very solid. At the time, I didn't know about the other vendors you guys mentioned. The Whitney rockers are slightly different than the originals, which gave me some trouble.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have seen many venders at swaps with these rockers..JC Whitney style and they seem identical..and the major flaw in these is the J curve at the threshold for weather seal..this is questionable..but then I have also seen the extremely higher priced rockers and they are only costlier..no more attention to detail could I see..Now mind you this is frm what Ihave seen and I make no claim to have seen every available unit. I also lucked upon a set of factoryu NORS rockers..these babies have the threshold plug holes, rocker trim rectangular holes and are heavier metal..for the money and knowing you have x-amount of tweak to do anyway..JC is hard to beat...