Can You Help ID My Engine

[thejackrabbit]

Hello to all of you in Chrysler/Dodge/Pymoth & DeSoto Land. Thank you Mr. Administrator who expedited my authorization.

Today's problem is identifying the 23 inch Dodge flat 6 that has replaced the OEM engine in my 1936 International Harvestor T-20 Crawler. This engine has been installed for many years going back to two previous owners. Now, the engine serial numbers appear to have been ground off of their rightful place on the left side of the engine near the #1 cylinder. I have examined the surface, free of paint, with a 10X glass and there are no numbers of letters remaining.

Since this is northern New Mexico, the donor vehicle may have been stolen hence the identifying numbers being ground off. There are clear wire brush marks on that surface.

So, I am searching for alternative methods of figuring out the engine model. On the right side at the bottom of the block is "D15". Now, there is a P15 and a D24. Does anyone know of a D15? Perhaps this does not mean anything.

The thermostat housing is a large bulbous thing like I have seen in photos of Chrysler Windsor. It is not at all like the Powerwagon thermostat.

Also, after brushing through many layers of engine paint, it appears the layer of paint closest to the iron is blue. Did Dodge or affiliates use a blue engine paint?

Any suggestions are appreciated. BTW, this engine has way too much power for this tractor. I have to really watch the RPM to keep it from flying down the field. While you probably don't often hear someone claim these old Dodge Flat six engines having too much power, remember that for me 7 to 10 MPH is about as fast as I want to go.

The OEM engine was a OHV 4 cylinder with 221 cubic inches, governed to 1,250 RPM. This flat six spins a bit faster. The installation is pretty neat meaning well done except they had to eliminate the oil filter to fit inside the frame. I suppose a remote filter and braided lines would be a good idea assuming the pump has sufficient pressure.

Thanks for reading this and I look forward to any thoughts you might have.

[JerseyHarold]

Welcome to the forum. Good to hear a flathead six found a home in your tractor. You're in the right place to learn more about it.

The engine may not have come from a stolen vehicle. Many 'production' engine rebuilders routinely ground the original numbers off the block; some would add their own serial number tag to show that the engine was rebuilt. Also, some factory replacement engine blocks came without numbers from the factory.

Harold

[oldmopar]

here is a link to good reference on flat head engine #'s

http://www.t137.com/registry/help/otherengines/otherengines.php

[thejackrabbit]

Welcome to the forum. Good to hear a flathead six found a home in your tractor. You're in the right place to learn more about it.

The engine may not have come from a stolen vehicle. Many 'production' engine rebuilders routinely ground the original numbers off the block; some would add their own serial number tag to show that the engine was rebuilt. Also, some factory replacement engine blocks came without numbers from the factory.

Harold

That is a good thought. I have never seen an engine rebuilder do that but it is possible. Anyway, the statute of limitations ran out long ago.

[thejackrabbit]

here is a link to good reference on flat head engine #'s

http://www.t137.com/registry/help/otherengines/otherengines.php

Been there. Without the engine the serial number there is not much that site offers.

[wayfarer]

What information, exactly, are you trying to determine? This will help us help you.

.

[greg g]

There might be a date casting on the block nrat the starter. if its a 23 inch engine, it can be a 201, 36-41 plymouth, a 218, 42 through 53 plymouth or a 230 dodge. The only difference between the 218 ad the 230 is the stroke. the 201 was used in Co Op tractors, so the application is not far fetched. they also powered massy harris/fergerson combines.

on the head over number 6 cylinder is a pipe plug. if you take this plug out, you can insert a piece of stiff wire, and measure the stroke as the wire will ride the top of the piston through its movement. Make sure the wire is about 8 inches long, remove the parkplugs and turn the engine over by hand through sufficient revolutions to measure the sroke. 4 3/8 =218. 4 5/8 =230.

if you can find the date code you can determine if its a 201 if produced before 41. the blocks are all identical externally, and you can make a 230 from a 218 by swaping in the crank and rods, so parts is pretty much parts.

You can probably source a governor from Vintage power wagons. these engines were used in a lot of military and stationary applications. Welders, pumps, compressors, air raid sirens, generators, aircraft auxiliary power units, and clark airplane tugs.

As noted, chrusler sold unnumbered blocks to engine rebuilders like jasper sears, and lots of others. They were supposed to have numbers added by the rebuilder but in many cases it didn

t happen. Look over the block carefully ad see if there is a small rivet hole where a brass rebuilders tag might have bee attached. Usually these were in the area between the generator and the oil file pipe.

an add on by pass filter is an easy thing to do. Many of these engines were not equipped with filters from the factory. The filters wer lots of time dealer adds and after market adds. The bypass filters show up quite regularly n ebay for 20 to 50 bucks usually with the plumbing.

[Captain Neon]

Also, some factory replacement engine blocks came without numbers from the factory.

Harold

Thanks, Harold.

I never knew this, and I always wondered why the L6 that was in my '46 when we got it never had an engine number. I felt a little bad about swapping out the blown 218 for a 230 eight years ago, but now knowing that the original had been removed decades earlier makes me feel so much better.

[Andydodge]

It seems a bit of a long shot, but the Australian Export Plymouth based Dodge in 1940 was the D15, I think it also had some use in canada......My 1940 Australian Dodge Sedan is a D15 model, its stamped into the top of the Oz passenger side firewall, D15D 475, .......but as I removed the original engine 35 yrs ago I can't say if anything D15 is on the block........andyd

[JerseyHarold]

FWIW, the block in my '51 Plymouth business coupe doesn't have a number on it, and has a casting date of 1955. The head has a casting date of 1953. A real mutt!

[Normspeed]

Hi Jackrabbit, another New Mexico member, good to see. I'll PM you.

Here's what I gave myself for Christmas this year:D Check the truck tires. Needless to say, I'm on the hunt for some original style rear rims and tires. 1939 Allis Chalmers WC.

[BobT-47P15]

There are some raised numbers down below the distributor.....they

indicate what year the engine was built.

And, toward the rear, on the top of the head, there may appear a letter D for Dodge.

Of course, that doesn't really indicate what year it is.

[thejackrabbit]

It seems a bit of a long shot, but the Australian Export Plymouth based Dodge in 1940 was the D15, I think it also had some use in canada......My 1940 Australian Dodge Sedan is a D15 model, its stamped into the top of the Oz passenger side firewall, D15D 475, .......but as I removed the original engine 35 yrs ago I can't say if anything D15 is on the block........andyd

There is definately a "D15" in raised lettering stamped onto the "passenger" side of the block at the bottom.

The long and windy road these engines travel, nothing would surprise me. Thanks for the post.

[Normspeed]

Jackrabbit, thanks very much for the PM with the lead on a tractor parts dealer. I look forward to getting a phone number for him.

[thejackrabbit]

I took the suggestion seriously to examine the block below the distributor. There at the very bottom of the block just above the flange for the oil pan was:

]"6-23"[/size]

This does not match but is similar to the plate riveted to the top of the head which reads:

"3-29"

Oh, how I hoped these were not dates of manufacture. I am not emotionally prepared for anything that old

[B-Watson]

The D15 was the small Plymouth-based export Dodge in 1940 and was sold in Canada as the Kingsway, a name the export version would adopt after World War II.

The engine was the Plymouth engine, which on American-built D15 models was the 201.3-cid flathead six (23" block). Canadian-built 1940 Dodge D15 (and D16 DeLuxe) models used a 218.1-cid engine (25" block).

The only problem here is that the American-built export Dodges used Plymouth engines with Plymouth engine numbers. From 1935 through 1950 they had their own serial number sequences, but starting in 1951 they used Plymouth serial numbers, as did all 1937-1959 export DeSotos based on the Plymouth.

Canadian-built Dodges had engine number prefixes matching the model number right through to 1958 and serial numbers right to the end in 1959.

Bill

Vancouver, BC