Safety door locks

[DonaldSmith]

The doors pop open on old cars when the door frame is distorted enough to pull the strike away from the latch.

Modern latches engage a post with a head on it, so the parts cannot separate. Juliano's sells bear claw latches, but they would require extensive modifications,even cutting into the inner door panel to clear the protruding post.

I think when safety door locks first came out, they were like the older style latches, but with overlapping parts to keep the latch and strike from separating. Are there any such door locks that would be interchangeable with the postwar Chrysler products?

Is there any other device with a part on the door that would overlap a similar part on the jamb when the door is closed, to keep door and jamb from separating?

[Plymouthy Adams]

the design of the mechanizm withthe outer latch, inside release and the through hole for the outer door lock assembly make these cars pretty much an as is situation. You can upgrade to bear clow style latches and retain inside handles without problem but the outer handle may take a bit to install a bell crank to operate the bear claw...I have a 41 here but it is going slight mod with shave outers, original inside mechanism but with 91 Dodge Dynasty lacthes, B-post and electric door locks with remote entry..this should be viewable if you search the forum...however I assume you want to stay stock in appearances...

[DonaldSmith]

I found installation photos of bear claw latches mounted flush (notch the inner door panel to clear strike post) and surface (build out a box with the mounting plate).

It's not the sort of job to knock out in a weekend. But that does ont stop the mind game.

There is a recess in the door post where the strike is. Will the small bear claw body, mounted on the door edge, fit into the recess without enlarging the recess? It looks like the small bear claw latch with the locking lever would be too high. The latches come with and without the locking lever. Do I need the locking lever?

Can someone post a schematic of the existing latch and lock setup?

[Plymouthy Adams]

Donald..this is what I did on my Dodge..however I did not even try to incorporate the outer handles as I am going shaved and remote entry with self made poppers...the use of the handle would probable be easy with just a bell crank with square hole and two locking collars to hold it in place and allow rod attachment to the upgraded locks...these did allow use of the original inside handles...may give you some insight as to some of the work involved. The electric solenoid that unlock the door when you push the remote is spring loaded and thus any overtravel is absorbed by the spring with no harm doen to the either the solenoid or the latch.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=45&highlight=dynasty

[DonaldSmith]

I had to remove the glass from my right front door, because it cracked. (Maybe one of my weatherstripping screws was not in far enough and hit the glass, starting the crack.)

To remove the glass channel, I had to remove the lockset, which I had been meaning to do anyway, to try to figure how to adapt bear claw latches to the doors.

I've had a good look at the existing lockset, how the inside handle rotates levers that do their tricks, and how a thing slides up to lock the outside handle. Maybe that part of the mechnism can be salvaged, to support the outside lever shaft and key shaft, and the mechanism's motion converted to operate a bear claw latch on the outer edge of the door.

I can grind off a few big rivets and remove the rotating latch mechanism, and see what I've got left. Then I can buy a set of mini-bear claws, without the locking device, and devise something. But I hesitate to go beyond the point of no return with my existing latchset.

Does anyone have a spare lockset that would be donated to the advancement of technology? My car is a '47, but I suppose any post-war Mopar through the early '50's would be the same.

[De Soto Frank]

Don,

The '41-'48 lock mechanism / strike should be the same.

While there have been improvements in door-latch technology since yours and my De Soto were built, is there some cosmic force that is urging you to revamp your latches ?

I have not had any problems from those on my '41 De Soto or '48 New Yorker.

The Chrysler rotary latch was one of the more reliable systems of the era.

You mentioned in your original post about the door latches "popping open if the frame is distorted"; I presume you are referring to a collision event as opposed to the "settling" of a tired car-body ?

The old "spring-bolt latches" used prior to WW II were indeed prone to "popping", and usually incorporated a wedge & slot to keep the door and latch pillar from "working" past one another, and slipping the bolt. This was also in the era of wood & steel composite bodies, which were more prone to flexing than our Budd all-steel bodies.

RE: your glass-breakage - where did your side-glass crack ? Did it happen upon clsing the door with the window rolled-down ?

De Soto Frank

[DonaldSmith]

The glass is cracked on the outside, starting at the top about six inches from the back, going down half way, then jogging forward maybe four to six inches, and then down all the way. The top weatherstripping is a nice fuzzy lined channel so the beltline weatherstripping is suspect. I'll double check the small screws which I used to hold the beltline weatherstripping in.

About the door latches, I remember seeing a safety film of a 57 Plymouth getting in an accident and spilling the dummy passengers out. This was before safety door latches, and of course before widespread, mandatory use of seat belts.

Recently I opened the first of the grisly photos posted in this site recently, but it was enough to resurrect some former reservations about the safety of these old cars. But there's plenty of room for varying opinions on the topic.

The existing latches latch sometimes an allow the door to bounce back other times. It seems to be a fine art to adjsut the strikes just right.

[De Soto Frank]

Don,

As far as vintage MoPars go, I think I would be inclined to install quality seat/shoulder belts before I would attempt to change the door latches...

Is there heavy wear on the strike plate that suggests the doors are sagging due to hinge-pin wear?

If the door tends to "bounce back" when you shut it, that could be due to stiff, dried grease in the latch mechanism and/or broken spring preventing the ratchet pawl from locking the strike wheel. When I've pulled these latches, I usually find them caked with dried white-lithium grease - they usually respond well to cleaning & re-lube.

Bear in mind that those safety films were probably also slanted towards pushing new cars...

As for your glass breakage, here's my tale of woe with my '41 De Soto: previous owner replaced all the glass, but the side glass was not fitted very well, plus the window channel liners were shot, so I had a bunch of cracked glass. I found a glass shop down in Virginia that still had the correct patterns, so I bought front vent glass, and front/rear roll-down glass from them. I also had to replace the glass-setting channel with the guide wheels, that attaches to the regulator arms. I replaced the upper channel with the correct size stuff from Restoration Supply Co, and installed it with the proper clips, etc.

I did NOT replace the side-sweeps ( fuzzy strips at the "window sill" where your arm rests in the open window) because I could not (still can't) find the correct clips (little "v" with wings: -v- , that snaps through the sweep and into holes in the door), nor could I find the proper "staples" that hold the sweep to the garnish moulding.

So, at any rate, I had nice glass all down the driver's side of the car, then one fine August Sunday, when I was on an outing with a friend, I rolled the glass down in the doors and closed them. My driver's rear door is fussy, and sometimes takes a second try to close it.

When I put the windows back up that night, I discovered a nice diagonal crack in the driver's rear door glass, from the lower front corner up to the upper rear corner. The glass wasn't two week's old.

I concluded that the missing side-sweep allowed the top of the glass to bounce around between the door frame and the garnish moulding, conributing to the breakage.

One other discovery: when I pulled the rear doors apart to install new glass, I found the the LOWER channel (inside the door) also had a felt liner, which is shallower than the exposed upper liner, so that it does not interfere with the guide-wheels of the bottom channel. I cannot find this channel anywhere; it is something like 9/16" wide x 3/8" high... I believe the purpose of this is to support/cushion the glass so that it doesn't break if the door is slammed with the glass rolled-down. So, there's another contributing factor to the quick breakage of my new glass.

The rear, lower channel of the front doors and both lower channels of the rear door would have had this second channel-liner.

If the screws you used to secure your side-sweeps are safely buried in the felt "fuzzy", I wouldn't think they are the culprit... you might try sliding an index or business-card along between the glass and the sweep, checking for tight-spots...

What size/type screws did you use for the side-sweeps ?

Frank

[DonaldSmith]

Frank, you're spoiling my mind games! All the other old car guys have bear claw latchsets. But I have three-point seat belts in the front and lap belts in the rear, so I won't fall out if the car gets hit and the door pops open.

I may upgrade to retracting belts up front and move the three-points to the middle seat. Now the anchorage is at the top of the B post, where there's a lot of metal, but the belts hang over the coach lights and fancy hand grips. I may fashion new anchor points for the front and middle seat belts. I disturbed the headliner anyway to re-wire the cabin, so maybe I'll put in the anchors and then a new headliner. A different mind game.

Yes, some of my doors do not latch each time they are closed. they seem to bounce back every other time. I'll try lubricating the latchsets and I'll check for hinge wear.

To secure the beltline weatherstripping, I used stainless steel No. 4 x 1/4" pan head sheet metal screws, into the garnish molding and into the stainless steel trim on the outside. At the outside trim I located the screws to coincide with gaps in the door edge, which may be there for the weatherstripping clips for cars where there is no trim.

I installed weatherstripping about four years ago, using Restoration Specialties' best. For the channel weatherstripping below the beltline, I used the same size as above the beltline. The flanged wheels ride between the sides of the steel channel and the back of the legs of the weatherstripping channel. It works.

[De Soto Frank]

Don,

Thanks for the info on your window-channel stuff... I will try the "above-sill'' channel-liner in the concealed tracks.

As for "spoiling your mind games", my goal was more along the lines of determining "which problem you're trying to solve"...

As far as the "bear claw" latches go, I am thinking of the style that GM used pretty-much across the board from the early '70's through the 1990's... with the "big bolt" that sticks out of the latch-pillar.

If we are talking about the same thing, while it is a more secure design than the Chrysler rotary latch, they do not tolerate misalignment / sagging due to worn-out door hinges; at least not for very long.

The driver's side latch on my '89 Chevy pick-up has been wiped-out due to worn-out hinge-pins; the truck previously belonged to an electrical contractor, so I guess the door saw a LOT in in&out traffic. At some point, I will yank the door, rebuild the hinge, and replace the latch.

As for "all the other old car guys have bear-claw latches"... I would ask if they also have disc-brakes, small-block Chevy power, AT/PS/PB/tilt/AM-FM/AC, etc...

( We are talking about your De Soto Suburban, right ?)

Perhaps there's somebody out there who sells a "magic" door latch kit that will easily adapt to our MoPars...

The newest MoPar I have owned to-date was my '64 Newport, and that still used the same type rotary door-latch as my '41 De Soto...

I'll have to check-out what type of latches are on my '64 Valiant ragtop...

Frank

[cwcars88]

I have the bear claw latches on my 46 chev panel delivery, they do work good and are secure. But I have torn several belt loops off my jeans on the BIG-BOLT that sticks out.

Wayne

[Young Ed]

Haha I forgot about that part. I have a couple missing beltloops from the latches on dads CJ-7.

[62rebelP23]

the street rod guys with "suicide doors" (gawd how i hate that term) sometimes back up their latches with solenoids that push a steel pin through the door into the cowl when they activate the door locks. they retract with the movement of the door handle somehow. i suppose you could add something along these lines to our doors. personally. my 52 doors work fine except the drivers' which sags a little from the worn lower hinge. all the others clack shut soundly, very impressive.

[kbuhagiar]

DonaldSmith,

Did you ever proceed with your conversion to bear claw latches? Or were you able to resolve your existing door latch issues through cleaning & lubrication?

Edited May 18, 2011 by kbuhagiar

[DonaldSmith]

Never went the bear claw route.

I've been living with the balky latches.