Trying to get the 218 started

[steveplym]

Got the radiator back in today and put in the starter. All the fuel lines hooked up and decided to try to fire up the old girl.

It cranks over real good and has good oil pressure. It will back fire out the exhaust and thru the carb, but will not start. Plenty of fuel and made sure distributor was put in correctly as well as spark plugs put in correctly to the firing order. Still no good.

Any ideas where to go next? My next step will probably be messing with turning the distributor to change the timing. I made sure when I put the motor together to line up the timing marks between the cam and crank timing gears. Used a straight edge to make sure it was lined up right. Can't see that being a problem.

Thanks for any input, nothing's easy.

[oldmopar]

I would recheck the timing 1st also here is some basic timing information from the website tech tips incase you have not tried this yet.

ed

Static Ignition Timing

The classic Catch-22. Your trying to get your flathead started. The engine is not running so you can't check the timing with a timing light. However you suspect the reason the engine won’t start is because the timing is set incorrectly. The solution is easy, static time the ignition.

You need a cheap neon indicator, the kind you use to check your household wall outlet. First turn the engine over by hand until the timing marks line up at top dead center (TDC). Pull the distributor cap and verify the rotor is pointing at the cylinder #1 plug tower on the distributor cap. Usually the rotor is pointing around 7:00 o’clock. If not, it means cylinder #6 is in firing position and you need to turn the engine one full revolution. One way to be sure of the firing position is to pull the front valve cover off and watch the lifters. If cylinder #1 is TDC, both valves will be closed. As you continue to turn the engine manually, the exhaust valve will open. Once TDC is set, pull the plug wire off plug #1 and hook up one lead of the neon tester to the plug connector. Connect the other neon lead to a solid ground, such as the coil bracket. I use short jumper wires with alligator clips to secure the connections.

Reinstall the distributor cap, and loosen the locking bolt on the distributor so it will rotate. Turn on the ignition. Rotate the distributor fully clockwise until you hit the stop. Then slow turn counter-clockwise until you see the neon tester flash. When the light flashes you are set for TDC. Tighten the distributor locking bolt. The advantage of starting with static timing is neither the vacuum or centrifugal advances are in use. By the way, this procedure is similar to one discussed in the Plymouth Service Manual in the Ignition System section. The service manual setup uses the ignition point circuit instead of the plug wires and a six volt bulb is used instead of a neon test light.

[steveplym]

Thats a good tip. I'll have to try that tomorrow. It's a good starting point.

[Normspeed]

And even when you have #1 in the right place and timed, might want to double check that the other 5 are in the right firing order for clockwise rotation. 1-5-3-6-2-4. The popping and backfiring sounds a bit like a swapped pair of plug wires.

[steveplym]

Checked it again this evening. Tried to set the timing using the neon tester and the jumper wires. Turned the key on and pulled #1 plug wire, hooked the tester up to the plug wire and the other lead to ground. Turned the distributor all the way clockwise and then back all the way, light never lit.

Also set the #1 to TDC. Made sure #1 piston was up at tdc and pulled the spark plug out. Took a hose and blew into the hole and could not blow into the hose, valves are closed so #1 is on compression stroke.

Hopefully this means that the timing chain and gears are set correctly.

Now just need to figure out the ignition issues. I checked the plug wires and rotor is at 7 o'clock position. Goes #1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4 clockwise. Doesn't appear to be a wire crossed.

I advanced the timing some and it does not backfire like it did, but will not run.

I'll have to check it later this week when I find time. I'll figure it out eventually.

[oldmopar]

Are you getting a good spark, are points set correctly plugs and wires are correct and distributer is installed correctly (it is possible to put it in backwards which would cause starting and running problems) did you have the car running before you stated the engine work

[james curl]

You might try priming the carbutetor a little, sometimes after they sit for a long time or run out of gas don't want to start without a lot of cranking. You might also check the coil for good fire.

[Jim Saraceno]

You may also want to pull the little plug above #6 cylinder and physically check that #1 (actually #6) cylinder is at TDC. When I replaced my engine, my timing indicator was from a different year than the timing mark and the two were out by about 30 degrees.

[T120]

If the neon did not light -could it be that your points are not set correctly,-

not opening?or, a bad condenser?

[steveplym]

Thanks for the replies.

Here's a quick synopsis of where I'm at here. The original 218 in my '47 was rebuilt in '96, rolled a bearing in '00 and was put away in the garage for a few years. I purchased a spare engine and put it right in the car. It smoked a bit and I thought it was time to fix the other engine. #2 rod bearing spun. Crank was bad too, so I took the crank out of the spare engine, had it turned and put it into this engine. All was rebuilt on the bottom end as the valve train had been rebuilt not too long ago and this engine did not have many miles when it was pulled back out I did not mess with the valve train.

When I put this engine back in I used the distributor off of the spare engine. I just replaced the points, condenser, vac advance, etc. last summer. All was running fine on the other engine so I put this one in. Wondering if maybe I need to go back to the other distributor that was originally in the car. Not sure what difference that would make, but it was be an easy swap to see if it would help the issue.

I'm not going to have much time to work on it until later this week. I've enlisted a mechanic friend to come over and help this weekend. Maybe between the two of us we will figure it out.

[Normspeed]

Steve, be sure to let us know when you solve it.

Some of the distributors used different caps/rotors, so if you did any mix and match between the two motors, that could be a factor. Don't overlook the obvious, like that #%^^! little points wire that likes to ground against the inside of the distributor.

[steveplym]

Steve, be sure to let us know when you solve it.

Some of the distributors used different caps/rotors, so if you did any mix and match between the two motors, that could be a factor. Don't overlook the obvious, like that #%^^! little points wire that likes to ground against the inside of the distributor.

Right Norm, I've been thinking about that too. That little wire makes me nervous. I probably need to replace that if nothing else.

[steveplym]

Pondering my issues here. When I lined up the timing marks on the crank and the camshaft I used a straight edge and did it like the manual showed. If I got it one tooth off, which is possible, it would most likely throw off the timing right?

With the engine at #1 TDC and the cap off. I looked closer and it looks like it might be closer to the 8 o'clock position. That would probably indicate the timing is thrown off. Man I hope not. Not looking forward to pulling the radiator back out and jacking up the front of the engine again.

I've also thought about switching the distributor out with my spare that was in this engine before. Probably wouldn't make much of a difference.

I guess I run a compression test this weekend and check for fire at each cylinder. That ought to tell the story.

[greg g]

There is another bolt on the bottom of the dizzy that will allow it to be truned a bit more than the sloted hold down. Feel around under the body of the diz and you schould be able to find it. You can loosen it then align your diz to get number 1 indexed to whee the rotor is.

When I did my engine I had a problem starting. The engine woudl sput and backfire and cough. I checked it twice and eas sure the wires were incorrectly according to the firing order. But I was one tower off on the cap. when I realigned the wires it fired right up.

When you say you are one tooth off how do you mean this? did you have the engine all apart and think you misaligned the timing gear and chain? The diz is indexed to the oil pump, the oil pump can go back in so that the proper 7 oclock for # 1 is not correct, but if you can find tdc for #1 and align the diz and wires to that you should be ok at whatever clock position is current to the pump. Other wise the diz can either be correct of 180 off.

[Ed Griffin]

"Tried to set the timing using the neon tester and the jumper wires. Turned the key on and pulled #1 plug wire, hooked the tester up to the plug wire and the other lead to ground. Turned the distributor all the way clockwise and then back all the way, light never lit."

This is what tells me that you need to go to the next step and find out why you have no spark after checking it like you have. Even with a unaligned time you should have had light at one point or another when moving the distributor from one side to the other. This is most likely where your problem is, not the alignment of your timing. It sounds like you did it correctly.

"I advanced the timing some and it does not backfire like it did, but will not run."

With the way you've discribed it backfiring and also getting better results after moving the distributor THEN it sounds like a timing problem yet without spark it wouldnt be backfiring, would it? If you pulled the distributor cap and then turned the engine over you dont see a spark on the points at all? Could it be that there's a loose wire which would give you erratic results?

This has been one of the most common problems asked about after some type of rebuild and most times it's been the distributor out 180 degrees or spark plug wires not correct. I did it as well and will probably be asking again in the future.

I really think you have the timing gears aligned because my engine has jumped time and your getting much better results like carbs backfiring which tells me it's trying to start. All mine will do is turn over and thats it and I've already done what you've mentioned along with a compression test which wasnt good and a distributor swap.

If a compression test also shows good results I would look for something loose, go over the wires, including the plug wires at both ends, back step over all you know you've worked on then maybe try the distributor swap. It really sounds like your close.

[steveplym]

Thanks for the replies Ed and Greg.

I'll check the bolt on the bottom of the distributor Greg, I didn't know there was another adjustment.

Ed, I'm glad you think my timing chain is installed correctly. Those symptoms give me an idea of what to look for. With what you told me it doesn't appear I have it installed wrong.

I'll continue to diagnose this and keep all these ideas at hand. Thanks for the help guys and I'll let you know what happens.

[builtfercomfort]

On an old Chevy straight six, I've just rotated the distributor while cranking the motor until I got it running. I don't know how much adjustment this way you will have on the flathead, but on my old motor the timing marks were missing so it was a complete guess. A few scary backfires but we got it running.

If it's backfiring thru the carb, it has spark and gas so you must be close.

[steveplym]

After reviewing what was working and what was not I took Greg G's advice and looked at the adjustment on the bottom of the distributor.

I pulled the distributor and put the one in that was in the motor when last ran. Set TDC and rotor pointed more at the 6-7 o'clock position. I set up the neon tester to static time it. Light flashed and I locked down the distributor.

Engine fired right up. Idles good and sounds good. Have a few minor issues. Oil filter lines are leaking a bit at connections. Tried to tighten them some, but difficult area to get a wrench in with starter, etc installed. Will have to figure that out.

Getting a squealing noise from the front. Got it tracked down to the fan belt. Pulled the belt off and started the engine, no noise, so I put some dressing on the belt and it quit for a while and started again. Called Napa and ordered a belt.

If all works out I'll bolt up the driveshaft on Saturday and take her for a spin. See how the weather is. Really good to hear it run after all this work.

[greg g]

Awww RRRIght!!!! hope you get your ride. Just for the heck of it, are your distributors the same, did you use the dizzy cap from one on the other or were the caps the match tot he diz??? There are several iterations of distributors and teh caps are different. Basically that is a low sided diz that needs a tall cap and a tall diz that needs a shorter cap. If you put a tall cap on a tall dizzy the rotor doesn't line up with the lugs in the top of the cap and won;t transfer spark as the gap is to large to jump.

[oldmopar]

Steve good to here you got it running. It feels good to win a battle the war will go on for as long as you own the car.

[steveplym]

Awww RRRIght!!!! hope you get your ride. Just for the heck of it, are your distributors the same, did you use the dizzy cap from one on the other or were the caps the match tot he diz??? There are several iterations of distributors and teh caps are different. Basically that is a low sided diz that needs a tall cap and a tall diz that needs a shorter cap. If you put a tall cap on a tall dizzy the rotor doesn't line up with the lugs in the top of the cap and won;t transfer spark as the gap is to large to jump.

The distributors are basically the same. The other distributor came out of a early '40 model plymouth and is a bit different. The '47 diz looks more modern you may say. At least the internals do such as the points. I'm not sure if they are both short or tall, but they are the same height.

[steveplym]

Well I worked more on the motor yesterday. Got the oil line to stop leaking by changing and tightening a few fittings. New fan belt stopped the squealing noise in the front. Gonna have to adjust the valves as the lifters are making some noise.

Haven't got to drive it yet. Backed it out of the garage after I installed the driveshaft. Pulled it back in and may need to adjust the clutch a bit.

Here's a few pics of the progress.

I fabricated a throttle return spring bracket. Works good and don't have to have it on the vacuum advance line.

[greg g]

mmmmmmmmm pretty!!!!

[oldmopar]

If a engine looks that good it just has to run. Glad you got it running,

Ed

[steveplym]

Took off down the highway this morning for a test drive. Engine was running good and good oil pressure as well as temp fine. Looked back about 2 1/2 miles down the road and saw smoke coming out the back. Smelled like antifreeze, temp starting going up so I pulled over expecting the worst.

Checked under the hood and the heater hose that goes into the block had come off, guess I didn't get it tight enough. Tightened it up and filled it up with some water. I went ahead and shut off the valve I have at the back of the block to avoid any other issues until I got it home. Started the car and it was getting hot again. I was confused as I usually run it all summer with the valve closed to keep the heat out of the car. Opened the valve back up and it went back down to 180 quick. I'm wondering if there is something wrong. Possibly the thermostat stuck closed?, or could that even be possible. I know that when it goes thru the heater core from the block the hose then hooks to the water pump. Opening that valve would in no way bypass the thermostat would it?

Any thoughts as I'm somewhat confused, or maybe my head just hurts from working on old Plymouths.