1952 B-3 drive shaft help…

[3rdowner]

First, I am new to both this forum and to the Dodge community.  I have owned two Dodge/Chrysler cars prior to purchasing a 1952 B-3 to restore.  I had a 1971 Dodge Charger, R/T, 440 6-pack with a slap-stick (owned from 76’-78’, bought for $900 from original owner!) and a 1985 Chrysler K-Car, both served me well.  Second, I look forward to all’s help and contributing when I can.  Now for the question/challenge: my 52’ B-3-B (short bed) did not come with a drive shaft.  Easy, right?  Wrong.  I have looked high and low for a drive shaft, and have purchased same only to learn I have the wrong D-shaft.  The shaft I purchased has the Dodge/Chrysler Ball-Trunnion U-Joint with flange mount at both ends.  It is the right length, but does not have the right bolt-hole pattern at the trans-end, and the differential on the truck has half of a traditional 4-trunnion U-Joint on the output spline shaft.  Should I (or can I) put a splined ball-trunnion mount from a car of that year on the differential or should I stick with a standard U-Joint?  As for the trans end, I can have a machine shop put the right hole pattern on the shaft end I have (so I hope).  Last: I am totally open to purchase of the right shaft but have not found one. The shaft length is 63-3/4” from trans mount face to center of U-joint trunnion cup on diff.  Thanks for all the help in advance.

 

PS: typing with 1.5 eyes and all thumbs to-boot!

[Robert Harrison]

2 hours ago, 3rdowner said:

First, I am new to both this forum and to the Dodge community.  I have owned two Dodge/Chrysler cars prior to purchasing a 1952 B-3 to restore.  I had a 1971 Dodge Charger, R/T, 440 6-pack with a slap-stick (owned from 76’-78’, bought for $900 from original owner!) and a 1985 Chrysler K-Car, both served me well.  Second, I look forward to all’s help and contributing when I can.  Now for the question/challenge: my 52’ B-3-B (short bed) did not come with a drive shaft.  Easy, right?  Wrong.  I have looked high and low for a drive shaft, and have purchased same only to learn I have the wrong D-shaft.  The shaft I purchased has the Dodge/Chrysler Ball-Trunnion U-Joint with flange mount at both ends.  It is the right length, but does not have the right bolt-hole pattern at the trans-end, and the differential on the truck has half of a traditional 4-trunnion U-Joint on the output spline shaft.  Should I (or can I) put a splined ball-trunnion mount from a car of that year on the differential or should I stick with a standard U-Joint?  As for the trans end, I can have a machine shop put the right hole pattern on the shaft end I have (so I hope).  Last: I am totally open to purchase of the right shaft but have not found one. The shaft length is 63-3/4” from trans mount face to center of U-joint trunnion cup on diff.  Thanks for all the help in advance.

 

PS: typing with 1.5 eyes and all thumbs to-boot!

 

[Robert Harrison]

I'm a little confused about your descriptions.  I'm more familiar with the 39-47 models but have owned and sold some of the Ball and Trunion Ujoints to others.  On 39-47 models they eventually went to the Cleaveland brand or type of cross type Ujoint so I am surprised you have ball and Trunion type Ujoints in your year.  At some point the complexity of the drive shafts sort of forced the factory to produce a separate manual depicting the driveshafts, lengths and joints for trucks anyway.  I'm surprised that there would be a slip joint at the rear axel?  I wonder if you have a drive shaft from a 4x4 or maybe your rear axel is from a passenger car as the cars continued to use the ball and Trunion (corporate type) ujoints into the 1960's I think. I suspect if you have a ball and trunion flange at the rear axel that the axel may have been traded out at the rear axel with a passenger axel to get the gear rations up.  Factory gear ratios were probably about 4.11.  Im guessing yours might be higher.  Would have thought you would have the standard cross type Cleaveland joint at the trans too.  One of the reasons you have the truck and or it was not running might be because someone else got into this mix match and gave up on it not understanding what they have or how to deal with it.  So, I would start with checking your axel and see it the ratio was higher its just an indicator though if you had a factory set up with automatic your axel could be higher.  If you have a trunion type rear axel flange I think rather than mess with a good axel I would go back to the ball and trunion on that end but no slip joint on that end.  I dont know about the bolt pattern thing but it points to a different time slot of manufacture or swap car to truck or something like flywheel bolt flanges as the vehicle gets heavier or is a truck its possible the flange is the same just more bolts and if it fits together but you drill more holes I suspect you will be fine.  I like the cleaveland joints better the Ujoints are availalbe for the 1/2 and 3/4 ton from DCM classics and flanges for the trans come up on ebay but if you find the trunion stuff at that end you could do that the 39-40's were like that but they were all manuals.  The trunion type have to be set up carefully I understand when I sold the parts I had I told the guy he should find a driveline shop and have them do it for him.  He did and was pleased with the out come.  I think you should located a driveline rebuilder near you and have them help you.  Here in Seattle we have Drivelines NW they are basically too expensive but these guys can build something to what you need balaced and everything.  They can take flanges off one thing or the other and make it into what will fit.  You may need to find some flanges here and there or trunions to get there but I think this will give you the best option for a resolution.  Unless you have a leak at the rear pinion I would not disturb the flange to trade out for a different type if you have a ball and trunion on that end I would stay with that on that end.  Bob Harrison

[Robert Harrison]

PS you need to send pics of what you have.  Both flanges at axel and trans and flanges on driveline so people can help you.  

[3rdowner]

Hello Robert. Thank you for your response.  To clarify what I have: The differential has half of a cross-type U-Joint (other half would be on the correct drive shaft) and the trans has the Two-Ball and Trunnion mount (4 bolts). The drive shaft I purchased from a vintage Dodge parts supplier and the two-Ball and Trunnion at both ends, so basically, the wrong drive shaft.  A friend has a 41 sedan and it does use the drive shaft I purchased.  So, the shaft you scribed is correct.  I’m trying to find one.

[3rdowner]

[Los_Control]

My 2 cents.

You have the standard Cleveland style U-joints for a truck .... cars have the ball and trunion style.

Knowing what you are looking for is 1/2 the battle. .... My only issue with the Cleveland U-joints is availability and cost.

Many years ago they were only available from one supplier and they were $85 each.

They went out of business and they were no longer available for a few years.

Now there is a new supplier as of 7 ears ago? .... no idea what the cost is.

 

My humble opinion, I will replace mine with modern readily available u-joints when it is time .... mine are in good condition and will work for some time to come.

If they needed replaced I would spend more $$ and have the drive line rebuilt to accept a modern u-joint and that includes yokes like replacing the rear end with a modern unit.

 

Totally your choice and how you will build your truck, original or modified. .... yes your u-joint are a issue and not a figment of your imagination.

[3rdowner]

Thank you Los_Control.  Based on your response, are you saying I should have a Cleveland U-Joint at both ends or a Ball & Trunnion at the trans and Cleveland at the differential? 

[Los_Control]

My 1949 that pretends to be a 1950 ... has Cleveland at both ends.

I could understand if a car transmission was installed into a truck and it has ball and trunnion yoke .... but my original truck has Cleveland and so does everyone else at both ends.

 

As far as I know, factory used the same style front and rear of drive line and did not mix.

But a car transmission would easily bolt up to a truck engine and that would cause a difference.

These are just things that need to be taken care of 50 years ago when swapping parts and to keep the same yokes together to make things work.

So if you have different styles at both ends .... that is a previous mechanic swapping parts.

 

This is standard Cleveland  and what the trucks came with on both ends.

[Los_Control]

Wish I had a photo to show the front yoke on transmission .... weather is just not cooperating right now.

[3rdowner]

Wow, I should not be surprised, but I am.  My truck had a hard life, but it will rise again.  Based on my pics, can/should I swap the trans coupling out for a standard cross type U-Joint?  I will most likely end up having a drive shaft made in Denver, so my question is really: will I find a U-Joint with a spline matching the trans output shaft?

[bkahler]

Yes, I would swap the transmission yoke and have the driveshaft made using the later style u-joints for ease of finding replacements. 

[Los_Control]

This is where I'm not qualified to give advice.

I do believe a drive line shop can provide a replacement yoke for your transmission. That uses a modern u-joint.

 

Most likely they can do the same for the rear end so both ends match.

 

This is where you need to think about your truck and what you want in the end.

You can swap a 1990's Ford explorer rear end into the truck with some minor labor and welding .... then the rear end would have modern brakes, seals, u-joint.

You would then need to bolt on a modern yoke to transmission.

 

You can fix what you have and have a drive line made to fit.

 

Possible you can make a ball and trunnion on one side and Cleveland on the other

 

I'm just saying, if it was me and I needed to invest some $$ into the drive line ... and I'm as cheap as I am .... I would probably upgrade the rear end and have the drive line that came with the rear end modified to match the transmission.

 

New brake drums can cost as much as $400 each for existing rear end.

You will need a $100 tool to remove the brake drums from your existing tapered axle.

$85 for a u-joint .... you still need hydraulics for the brakes .... there is a China replacement available.

 

I'm still using original factory brakes because all my stuff was in good shape .... I did upgrade the MC.

I have the original u-joints .... I took them all apart and cleaned the needle bearings and then put back together with fresh grease.

 

I did all this because they were fine and worth saving .... If I needed to start dumping $$ into the brakes and u-joints, I will replace the rear end and get modern parts.

 

your truck and build it your way.

 

[Robert Harrison]

I cant tell what you have for a rear end now.  I dont think this is a stock rear flange so I dont know even what you have.  Im more familiar with the 49-47 trucks but I think the drive line would have been the same.  Your rear yolk looks like a more moder style that may use U straps to hold the joint or has caps that bolt to the yolk that yolk would be threaded the strap type uses nuts.  Hard to say what Ujoint you will need for that end but you can measure from the inside of the little bumps in the saddle and get the diameter from the width of the concave saddle.  It might have the dimensions in the joint I have an attachment for.  There are 4 parts on the transmission end.  You have the spline (1) then the female portion of the spline (2) then the Ujoint cross, then the yolk to transmission U joint adapter.   The 4 bolt transmission flange you see in your pic may be part of the trunion style joint which would likely have been from an early truck pre 41.  If so going with a ball an trunion to fit might be your best bet instead on that end.

I belive the original yolk sets had side mounted bolts and plates to hold the Ujoint in place.  I have included some articles I made some time back   The 4 bolt flanges below are the adapters that bolt to the transmission with the cross type ujoint.  a picture of the drive line ends you bought would help

Cleveland Ujoint Assemblies.doc Ujoint replacement.doc

[Robert Harrison]

I would expect cleaveland joints at both ends that would look like the Ujoint 3 and 4 speed joints just posted.

[3rdowner]

Thank you Robert and Loc_Control, you have provided the info I need to move forward.  My truck will be a run-around truck, traveling no more than a 5 mile radius.  I live in a small mountain town in CO, and the town is actually a plateau, so no real wills/mountain climbs.  I tell you this because the stress on the drivetrain will be minimal and the stock brakes will suffice. I’m going with standard U-joints and both ends.  I already have new drums and shoes all the way around and I grew-up driving a 29 Model A as my daily driver in a mid size town (Saginaw, MI), so braking with shoes is something I know well.  Just as a side note, Our town has a hardware/lumber yard, US Post Office, coffee/bakery, family style mountain bar and an automotive shop (hard core/frame-off stuff) shop run by an old-school mechanic (Sweet Pea’s Auto), within 1 mile of my home.  I will keep all posted (with pictures) as progress is made.

 

Again, thank you for the help, it’s this kind of on-line community that helps me keep the faith.

[3rdowner]

By the way, I told my wife that these old guys really know their stuff, to which she replied “david, you are old”.  Oh yeah, I forgot.

[Los_Control]

A modern u-joint has a C clip holding the end caps on.

A Cleveland has the piece circled in red that holds the caps on and straps then hold the u-joint in place.

Clevland u-joints do not have C clips to hold the caps in place.

 

I agree with you replacing with modern, unless you want a 100 point restoration show truck.

I would do the same in the future if I have any issues or if I do swap in a modern rear end.

 

[Robert Harrison]

53 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

A modern u-joint has a C clip holding the end caps on.

A Cleveland has the piece circled in red that holds the caps on and straps then hold the u-joint in place.

Clevland u-joints do not have C clips to hold the caps in place.

 

I agree with you replacing with modern, unless you want a 100 point restoration show truck.

I would do the same in the future if I have any issues or if I do swap in a modern rear end.

 

 

[Robert Harrison]

There are several types of Ujoints all deriving from what I would call the Cleaveland type.  The ones I am familiar with are the side strap which is what I have on my 41 WF 1.5 ton and my 47 1/2 ton which I imagine would be like your original set up.  If you look at the posts I gave you of the transmission end flanges you can see how the bolts come in on the end of the joint and the joint is held together with a strap.  What you have on your rear axel is another type but likely more applicable for welding on a flange to a drive shaft if you can match it up.  If you look at what you have there you see little tangs in the saddle of the joint those replace the end straps securing the Ujoint from moving out of the joint sidewise.  So with that type of joint you need one of a couple of types of retaining mechanisms.  one type is a simple u shaped strap it goes around the bearing of the cross through your joint with a nut on the end.  My modified Dana 44 in my Jeep it came from an 80's axel.  The other type basically completes what you have with a cast cap that looks like the bottom half of the  flange you have on the axel this uses through bolts and your flange would be threaded to accept the bolt.  I have not seen the drive shaft you bought so I dont have an idea as to what you have there.  You should send pics.  If you make the measurements I told you to take you can then go to a supplier and order a couple of returnable crosses and test the fit this may help you identify a flange to fit if you wish to keep this rear axel.  with that and a tube diameter you are moslty set.  I think the transmission end is going to be your bigger issue figuring that out.  I also had a modle A at 16 I used to drive it every where got it up to 70 on the freeway over 4 lanes.  Used to park it in my high school Vice principals parking slot which pissed him off but like I told him get to work on time and I would have to park somewhere else.  Bob Harrison

[kencombs]

I have a 56 PU. It uses a standard spicer u-joint in rear, and a ball and trunnion in the front.  I think just like yours should have. That type of drive shaft has to have the slip joint incorporated into the shaft itself as the transmission has the bolt on connection rather that more common splined shaft that accepts the front shaft's slip yoke.   Mine is in good shape and everything, but unfortunately I'll have to remove the front slip parts along with the flange that bolts to the trans.   I'll have to cut it off and add a new piece that fits the ujoint in the slip yoke I'm using to fit my A833OD transmission.   The parts are like these:

That will get replaced  with this and my slip yoke/new joint.

 

Luckily, my shaft now is way too long so I'll have plenty of tube and the rear part to use.   just cut, insert yoke, weld, straighten and done.   I hope.  The reverse process could be done to make one that fits your truck.

[3rdowner]

Robert, again, thank you for the feedback.  The first set of pictures are of the ball-trunnion (both ends) drive shaft which I mistakenly bought (was told it was correct by a Dodge parts supplier). As Vinny said in My Cousin Vinny, “I got no more use for this guy”. Anyone needing a double ball-trunnion drive shaft may have it.  The following picture is of one end of the incorrect drive shaft. Other end is same.

[3rdowner]

Robert, the following pictures are of a new (old) drive shaft and other components, I have purchased based on the conversations over the past couple of days.  There will be some adaptation required, but it is much closer than what i had.  Also, the new drive shat is the correct length (63.75) to the center of the u-Joint cross (trunnion).

[3rdowner]

[3rdowner]

Robert, the second set of pictures are of the components I have purchased.  Starting with the picture labeled “3 of 4”.