P15 door hinge repair progress

[3046moparcoupe]

Well it's trying to rain here a bit in NE Texas today, so I'm inside and thought I'd post on the past 2 weeks of work on the Club Coupe's door hinges.

 

Three of my hinge pins came out of the hinges with just a bit of penetrant and a few taps of persuasion, however the 4th (lower hinge drivers side) would not give it up. I quickly discovered that my propane torch wasn't going to even scratch the surface in regards to breaking the rust bond, so I began drilling out the pin. I do believe that everytime I've tried to drill out a broken bolt, stud, etc...I have done this,...TEP - you guessed it, broke off the little drill bit inside the material....finally - I have learned my lesson,....when drilling your 1st tiny pilot hole down the center,....go a ways - then stop and go to a slightly larger bit and drill almost as far as your pilot hole,....then go back to your smaller bit, and so on,....there may be other successful ways of doing this as well, but I've determined that this method will help prevent you from breaking off your small bit, as the slightly larger hole opening made by the larger bit will give you some room for your little bit to flex and move, as it is difficult to keep the drill perfectly still and perfectly straight. Anyway - I do believe I've learned a good lesson here,...as the little bit I broke off was Titanium and made this even more difficult.

 

What saved my bacon on this was the small set of 1/8" shank diamond tipped dremel bits that are available at Harbor Freight, I think the little set sells for about $7.99 and comes with a dozen or so different shaped bits....some of which are fine pointed - even smaller than the end of a toothpick. In the past I've used these to scratch rust off metal in tight crevice places...anyway - patience here is your friend,.....unfortunately I had about 1 1/4 " of Titanium bit broke off inside the hinge pin I was drilling out, so this took me quite a while,...but I was able to slowly drill out the steel of the pin, with getting into the wall of the hinge. I expected that I would be able to drill enough steel out to expose the bit and then be able to drive the bit back out or grab it and pull it out, but it never happened, I would drill a ways and get the side walls of remaining pin as thin as a sheet of paper, then taker a small screw driver and small tack hammer and peel away the thin sleeve of side wall, exposing the undisturbed hinge pin bore..I repeated this process over and over until I had about 1/4" of solid pin with bit inside it, remaining,...and the bit finally drove out, leaving me a 1/8 through hole I could now drill out, attached you can see the pic of the sleeve of remaining hinge pin that finally pushed out of the hole once enough material was removed.....morale of the story don't give up - you can do it,...rather than spend the money for a new hinge on ebay, which could very well put you right in the same place you already are...see attached pic 5174 below.

 

Now with the last pin out, and all did-assembled, I've started the process of cleaning then up for paint...see attached pics 5171 & 5179

 

All of the hinge pins I removed from these hinges were basically the same / but different. They were all in the .340 - .342 diameter range on the pin shaft itself, but the knurling was different on each pin..

see attached pic 5178

 

In looking at hinge pin kits for sell, when you compare the pin diameter and the bushing ID - I was typically seeing a couple thousands difference for clearance, so my 1st effort in replacing these hinge pins will be in that same regard for a close fit with room for a good coating of anti seize on the pin shaft itself. At present, with my three best condition hinge's, I have pins that measure around .342 with a bit of wear, also the pin hole bores show a bit of light surface rust,....I'm gonna gently remove as much of that surface rust as possible from the bores in effort of starting fresh, and initially try a new pin with a diameter of .345., if that feels too lose the next step up in diameter is .350.

 

Initially I could feel the movement and see the slop in my worst hinge. The pin was frozen inside the hinge strap/tongue, but was spinning inside both ends of the hinge frame. Obviously this had opened up the hole end where the knurling is located, however the opposite frame hole was wallered out and showed the worst movement. On the hinge frame of these hinges, there is a steel reinforcement bushing (if you will) around each hole, that supports and anchors both ends of the hinge pin. Since on this hinge it had been wallered out some, I was able to grab it with a pair of large pipe pliers and compress it down enough that the old pins would now fit snugly, then I took a small piece of copper tubing, cut it to fit the inside diameter of the pin hole, and welded around each pin hole to reinforce the area..see attached pic 5183.

 

My initial try .345 dia. hinge pins will be here in a few days and we'll see how they fit. hopefully the new knurling of the slightly larger pin will snug this all up, again if I find that I feel I need some more meat on the hinge pins themselves, I will go to the .350 diameter as I can always remove a little knurling if necessary...

 

I believe the stock hinge pin for these Plymouth cars had a .280 diameter, so someone has already oversize drilled these hinges at least once. I did study the thought of trying to modify these hinges to add copper bushings, like a more modern hinge. The copper bushing would have to be added into the hinge tongue strap itself, and would be a one shot you better get it right thing, or you've ruined the hinge strap, therefore I elected to try this route 1st, and if to no avail - I can always attempt the copper bushing modification later - if necessary.

 

Hopefully down the line, this post will possible help some Newbie, like myself - in getting this done,....biggest tool you have, I can't stress this enough  - P A T I E N C E  its your best friend.

[3046moparcoupe]

I was able to get all of my door hinge frame attaching screws out of the door pillars, however a few of the screws gave up some thread due to severe rust. Found these 5/16 - 24 screws replacements on ebay. I like the idea of the extra length, which will allow for a back up nut if some of the nut threads inside the door pillars also have deteriorated a bit as well..the stock screws are 7/8" long, these are 1 1/2" in length. My only concern was that every 5/16  - 24  oval head, phillips,...I could find was listed as Mild steel, (one place went as far as assuming that theirs were grade 5 ?? ) that really gives you a warm fuzzy,...:) anyway - I do not know what grade the original hardware would have been, if anyone out there knows, I'd appreciate the feedback...the individual I purchased these from had sold a boo kooz of them, and in all honesty said they didn't know as well, what grade they were...

 

I knew I didn't want to use stainless steel, and the only grade 8 hardware I could find was offered only in a flat head / allen wrench or torx configuration...I'm guessing if I lube these well, and with the car being garage kept and babied so to speak, these might work just fine....again, any and all input is encouraged and appreciated.

Edited January 26, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe

[casper50]

I applied Never Sieze and reused.

[Mike36]

As a retired machinist, I can tell you some of the reasons for broken drill bits. 1 - Bit has to be sharp. 2-  Alignment of bit to hole has to be absolutely maintained. Bits have to be hard to cut, and that makes them brittle. If the operator leans the drill a little to the side,result is almost certainly a broken bit because it cannot bend. Try bending a piece of peanut brittle. 3- Excessive RPM. This generates heat, causing trouble with the chips having enough time to ride the drill flutes up and out of the hole, resulting in a bind and broken drill. It also causes the drill to lose temper and go dull.  4- Use a lubricant. Minimizing friction minimizes heat and helps with chip flow and helps eliminate bind. 5- Feed rate, ( drilling pressure). The harder you push, the larger the chip size. Larger chips are more likely to have interference problems exiting a hole. Too little pressure causes the bit to rub rather than cut properly, resulting in a dull, then broken bit. In my career of building industrial tooling, I had to drill many small diameter holes in tool steel. This can be done successfully by following the tips shown above, plus drill with a pecking action. I have drilled many of these holes with such a small diameter, that I would let the drill turn a few revolutions, then pull it completely out of the hole, blow bit clean, blow out hole, re apply oil to bit, repeat. If it takes a half hour to drill a hole, that’s much less time than will be required to get a small broken bit out of the hole DO NOT GET IN A HURRY WHEN DRIlLING.

[3046moparcoupe]

wise words Mike, some of this I knew,...some I didn't (thanks for the valuable input)..

 

Steve.

[Andydodge]

3046Mopar............I'd be surprised if the original countersunk screws were high tensile grade 8, more likely grade 5 or possibly mild steel due to them having those countersunk shakeproof washers......but I'm no expert.........lol..........I've tried to remove the original Oz door hinges years ago and gave up and ended up knocking the hinge pins out........the Oz cars up to 1948 used external hinges similar to the 1938/39 mopars..........I do like how you have cleaned up the hinges.....nice shiney steel, looks good...............andyd  

Edited January 27, 2018 by Andydodge
more info

[3046moparcoupe]

Thanks Andy, it's a start on getting the metal cleaned up, but as ya can see in the pics,..I've got to get deeper into the crevices, etc...or it'll just come back on me. Trying to avoid the phosphoric acid if possible, but that may be the best way to get into those crevices...I know one sand blaster who might be carefull enough with these as well to maybe get into the corner areas and under the lips where the brace plates are spot welded to the frames...

 

Regarding the screws, I appreciate your reply,....I don't know if they even had grade 8 back in the mid 40's...anyway - my parts book just shows them as steel. I'd think even at mild steel there gonna be fairly strong for holding the hinge to the door pillar, but I'd sure think a harder grade would hold up to not rusting better than a softer grade....anyway - if I anti seize the heck out of em where the threads contatc the nut, and also maybe even cover the interior exposed threads up inside the kick panel with a rubber boot, over a layer of anti seize as well,...hopefully that would keep things gold in the future...

 

Always good to hear from you, regards.

S. 

[Andydodge]

Do you have anywhere local that sells molasses?..........I have not used it but a mate uses it all the time throws rusty bits in a tub of it and after a couple of days nice shiney steel.......as for protecting those threads after installation I'd get some fish oil spray and use that..............as for those crevices rust only works when it has access to moisture if its possible to run the acid between the two spotwelded pieces then maybe use fishoil or that POR15 stuff to essentially seal the crevice then you should be right for the next 50yrs or so............andyd       

[46Ply]

I learned a lesson the other day about drilling lead.  Didn't think much about it, proceeded to drill a hole in a lead weight for an old clock.  First thing you know the drill pulls it's way down into the lead very quickly.  (Thought it was going to suck me in with it.)   Second thing you know you've broken the drill bit off inside!  

[3046moparcoupe]

46Ply, this sounds like it might go hand in hand with Mike36's reply to this post, above. He really added in some value with his experience as a machinest, and when he spoke of the drill bit moving faster, and producing larger shavings, the risk of bit breakage increases...as the fragment have a more difficult time getting out of the way....

 

There is so much awesome knowledge here on this forum. I would be completely on my own here, were it not for the forum. There are lot's of vintage car guys in my area, but they are all Chevy / Ford,...and when you try to talk old Mopar with them, it doesn't seem to translate, they don't seem to wanna or feel like they can help...

 

Steve

[46Ply]

Steve, precisely,  that's what reminded me of my experience on the lead weight.  Wished I'd read this post before I worked on the weight.  

As stated,  good information here from a lot of knowledgeable people.

[Eneto-55]

On 1/26/2018 at 12:10 PM, 3046moparcoupe said:

All of the hinge pins I removed from these hinges were basically the same / but different. They were all in the .340 - .342 diameter range on the pin shaft itself, but the knurling was different on each pin..

see attached pic 5178

 

 

 

 

My drivers door hinge is pretty loose, and after trying to press it out I noticed that one end turns in the outer part of the hinge, and the other end doesn't.  But I gather from your write up in the original post that the pin goes all the way through.  Is that correct?  Certainly what I would have expected.  I had a good deal of pressure on it in the press, and it didn't budge.  I suppose I'll have to do like you did, and drill it out.  Also wondering how a bronze bushing would work in there, if a person could accurately drill it out a bit larger. (You mentioned possibly using copper - is it working out OK as is so far?)

Edited November 17, 2018 by Eneto-55

[DJ194950]

Neither of the ends are supposed to turn so I would guess that the pin is frozen to the pivoting part of the hinge and has broken the pin inside.

Maybe still be removed with heat of the car/truck but if not I would take the hinge to a machine shop if possible to be removed.

 

DJ

[Eneto-55]

32 minutes ago, DJ194950 said:

Neither of the ends are supposed to turn so I would guess that the pin is frozen to the pivoting part of the hinge and has broken the pin inside.

Maybe still be removed with heat of the car/truck but if not I would take the hinge to a machine shop if possible to be removed.

 

DJ

Thanks for the info.  I haven been back up to where I have my car parts stored since finding this discussion, so I haven't been able to compare the other hinges I have off.  (All but one of the hinges are off - on the lower driver's door hinge I couldn't get the screws out.)  How would a machine shop remove the pins?  I have a press, and I had a good deal of pressure on it, but it wouldn't budge.  It is the cap or top end - where according to MoparCoupe's picture there are serrations - that is turning in the outer part of the hinge.  It's odd to me that the pin broke inside the middle of the door part of the hinge, but that is what has happened, according to the information here.

[DJ194950]

I had to drill out the pins which was a real hassle with a drill press and was also was an issue to align, drilling almost all of 4 hinges - I not drill perfectly centered. I ended up going oversized pins to deal with this.

 

This is the reason I suggested a machine shop. They are more experienced have  and better machines to do this.

 

To determine if the hinge is broken somewhere in the middle as mine where I carefully watched the operation and movements of the hinge pivot to see what parts were moving as it was opened and closed.

 

Hope this is helpful with a diagnosis of yours.

 

DJ

 

 

 

 

[Eneto-55]

I checked the other hinges that I had already removed from the vehicle, and half of them have broken pins.  I suspect that the one I was never able to remove is also broken (driver's door), and also need to look at the ones that are not removable at all - on the rear doors.  Then to decide how I want to approach this task (farm it out, or figure out how to do it myself, which I always prefer).  If I do it myself, I may also look into putting a bearing in there, like heavy duty home exterior door hinges sometimes have, or maybe just a bronze bushing in the bore, and even a grease zert?

 

[DJ194950]

A friend of mine had a 50 Plymouth with one very worn out door hinge that the mounting screws would not budge. Heat off and on, spray penetrate, using a impact type driver did not move the door A pillar screws!

 

After some time had passed another friend of his said to him that try using his electric impact driver on them. Told me they came right out! The electric one was a slower RPM driver than the common air type.  Go figure.

 

 I installed grease fittings of the 90 degree type to clear obstacles in my reworked over size pins.

 

Almost all newer cars have replaceable brass/bronze /oillite  bushings,  including Mopar.

 

 

DJ

[Eneto-55]

I had a bit of time to work on this, and I got the head out on the sloppiest of the broken hinges.  It is broken straight off right below the serrations.

I ran a flat punch in through that hole, and have it setting in the press with a good bit of pressure on it.  Maybe it will budge over-night.... (Ha ha.  Fat chance, I reckon.)

 

I managed to remove the hinge pin heads on the other two that are broken.  All three are broken at the same place, just below the serrations.  I attempted to drill one out, and went off center by the time I got through.  It just barely got into the edge of the hole in the outer part of the hinge.  No amount of pressure I can put on it in the press has budged the rusted in pins.  This evening I used a thin wheel on a Dremel tool to cut the end of the pin that was preventing me from separating the two parts.  (I did cut into the hinge just a bit, but plan to use a washer in there anyway, to provide better movement there.  I had been thinking of using some bearings out of a set of heavy duty house door hinges, but they are thicker than i would want, and the ID is also a bit small.)  Now I can see both ends well, but still don't know how to get it out for sure.  I do plan to go oversized, and then use some bronze bushings, if I can find the right size.  I looked in our local hardware size, and theirs is either too small, or too big.   I'm thinking now that I should have drilled in from both ends, rather than all the way through from one end.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Eneto-55
adding info - Wednesday, 11-21-2018

[Eneto-55]

I got another one of them out today.  I drilled through, and got close enough to one side that it was able to collapse enough that I was able to drive it out fairly easily in the press.  
The bore is pretty chewed up, however.  I need to figure out how much 'meat' needs to be left around the hole, so that I can see if I can re-drill it large enough to install bronze bushings.  Any mechanical engineers on here?

Otherwise, my idea would be to make a jig that would correctly locate the hole for the pin, and then have some larger diameter pieces worked up on a lathe, and then welded in place (after cutting the original end off).  I would make them large enough to accommodate bushings.  (There's plenty of clearance for this - that would not be an issue.)
 

How heavy of a steel plate would a person need to use to be able to weld that in place w/o it distorting?  (I think I know where I can get a piece large enough for this that is at least 3/8", maybe 1/2", if my brother-in-law has not hauled it off for scrap yet.) The hole pattern for the door side of the hinge is identical for all of the hinges, I believe.  So there would be a steel plate with a block attached, to which the hinge would be bolted.  Then there would be a removable stem or bolt that could be moved to the different locations, to hold the new hinge pin receiver in place for the different hinge configurations.  (Or would it be cheaper to try to find some good used ones?  My car has just over 91 k original miles.  Maybe a lot of cars didn't get that much use, and might have hinges in better shape.  The part I like about rebuilding them would be that I could go back with bronze bushings.)

[DJ194950]

Take a look at most auto parts shelf bubble packs for GM. Mopar, Ford, etc for their stock usage of door hinge bushings for sizes as they are fairly thin to start with as I remember some do have collars on them?

 

DJ

[Eneto-55]

This morning I took the worst of my hinges, and drilled it out up to 3/8". I'm planning to go up to 15/32", then use sintered bronze bushings with 1/16" wall.  I was going up 1/64" at a time.  Is that the wrong way to do it?  I figured that it would follow the existing bore better by going just a bit at a time.  Or would you creep up on the final size even more gradually, by using numbered and/or lettered bits?

[Eneto-55]

I'm rather surprised that there is so little interest in this discussion - I would have thought that worn out hinges would be something that a lot of people would be dealing with.  But anyway, I'll try to be a contributor here, as well as a questioner. 

 

My assumption is that the original hinge pins were 11/16" diameter. (EDIT: That should be 11/32")  That's kind'a strange, but while one might expect that the driver's door hinges might have needed to be re-worked, I wouldn't have expected someone to go around & do all of the hinges on all 4 doors.  Because the bore on even the best on my hinges is pretty chewed up inside, my objective is to drill them out, then use a reamer for the final 0.010 or less, to use a bronze bushing.  I wanted to use sintered bronze, but I cannot find a source for a sleeve with that ID, and from what I've researched so far, there is a concern that if you machine them, it will close the pores. 

 

Here's the best option I've found so far: 5/16 ID  7/16 OD  x 1 3/8” from ISOSTATIC.  (This bushing IS the type with pores for self oiling - so is this a problem?)

 

Oilube® Powdered Metal Bronze SAE841 Sleeve Bushing

 

Otherwise, I was looking at cast bronze sleeve bushings, like this one (same supplier): Item # 104022, Century® Cast Bronze SAE660 Sleeve Bushing.  It is not available in the desired length, however, so I would have to use 2 for each hinge.  (Dimensions: 5/16 IN I.D. x 1/2 IN O.D. x 1 IN Length) 

 

Would it would be better to set two shorter bushings at top & bottom, with a space in the middle?  From looking at the wear pattern on the two good pins I have (out of the 5 hinges I have dismantled), the contact areas are actually only 1/4" to 5/16" at each end  (I forget now which was top, and which was the bottom.), so a say 3/8" length bushing at each end would allow for some grease to be trapped in the middle, to keep it well lubricated.  (Maybe I'm also over thinking this....)

 

One concern I have is that boring out the holes to 7/16 or 1/2 will weaken the hinge at this pivot point too much.  I am not a machinist in the least respect, but I found a statement (and a formula) regarding thin wall vs thick wall. and according to that, that part of the hinge strap, which is a nominal thickness of 7/8", would still leave a wall thickness of at least 0.1875 (3/16"), giving a ratio of wall thickness to inside diameter of well more than 0.1.  (The article I read says that any ratio greater than 0.1 is considered a thick wall.) 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Eneto-55
correct misinformation

[DonaldSmith]

Repair, right rear door, lower hinge, quick and dirty, 2004. 

Suitable for light duty and occasional use. 

I sacrificed part of a door hasp, beat it into shape, trimmed the width, and drilled some holes. 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by DonaldSmith
corrected the year

[Dartgame]

Eneto - I guess not many folks have had as severe an issue as you with the hinges. Fortunately mine needed no service other than lube. Sounds like you are making progress - it might be a good idea to seek a machinist to figure out the set up and installation of the bushing and pins.

[Eneto-55]

56 minutes ago, Dartgame said:

Eneto - I guess not many folks have had as severe an issue as you with the hinges. Fortunately mine needed no service other than lube. Sounds like you are making progress - it might be a good idea to seek a machinist to figure out the set up and installation of the bushing and pins.

I suppose you're right.  My car does have over 90,000 miles on it, and who knows how that was rung up, what sort of use it under-went.  There was a gentleman (on another site) who said that he had an extra set of hinges, but I just figured that it would be the same story with them, since the one who started this thread had also needed to do repairs on his hinges.  I could probably get by with all of the hinges but the one which I already drilled out, but there would be some slop, and the pins might wear out rather quickly, because of the roughness of the bore.  

 

I would be interested to know, if someone has pulled the pins in theirs and found them to be in excellent shape, if they happened to have measured the pin diameter.  There is still this question as to the original pin diameter.  If mine are over-sized (at 11/32"), then I would be more comfortable with dropping down to 5/16", a much more common bushing size.