Royal Duke Posted September 18, 2017 Author Report Posted September 18, 2017 Can anyone send me an updated, accurate wiring schematic of the systems controlling the Fluid Drive M4 transmission? Failing that, perhaps pictures of how you have the governor, solenoid, and interrupter switch, etc wired in a properly operating Fluid Drive equipped car. I am nearly at wits end trying to figure this out. The schematic in the 1941 Chrysler shop manual does not reflect what I see on my car. So the question comes to mind, "Did someone years ago jury rig the wiring, or is the schematic not a true showing of how it is to be wired?" Duke
Dodgeb4ya Posted September 19, 2017 Report Posted September 19, 2017 4 hours ago, Royal Duke said: Dodgeb4ya - are the diaphram and piston types interchangeable? if so, do you want to sell one of the piston types you have? Duke No... requires some different wiring (six terminal relay ec) and other parts. Both vacuum and piston type shift systems are thoroughly explained in the 1941-48 DeSoto shop manual plus the later M-5 late 1942 and 1946-48 Tip-Toe transmissions. The factory shop manual has everything in it including the correct wiring diagrams. I've used these diagrams many time to re-wire these M-4 and M-5 systems.
chrysler1941 Posted September 19, 2017 Report Posted September 19, 2017 13 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said: No... requires some different wiring (six terminal relay ec) and other parts. Both vacuum and piston type shift systems are thoroughly explained in the 1941-48 DeSoto shop manual plus the later M-5 late 1942 and 1946-48 Tip-Toe transmissions. The factory shop manual has everything in it including the correct wiring diagrams. I've used these diagrams many time to re-wire these M-4 and M-5 systems. I agree with Dodgeb4ya. The shop manual has what you need. But here is a colored version for easier tracing. The colors are random. electrical_diagram.bmp
Royal Duke Posted September 19, 2017 Author Report Posted September 19, 2017 Dodgeb4ya and chrysler 1941 - thank you both for the helpful information. Duke
Alex Posted September 21, 2017 Report Posted September 21, 2017 I have the same problem with the Fluid Drive ! i can only drive in 2nd and 4th gear ! There is no upshifting ! is it possible that the voltage regulator has an influence on the switching of the fluid drive ?
1949 Wraith Posted September 21, 2017 Report Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alex said: I have the same problem with the Fluid Drive ! i can only drive in 2nd and 4th gear ! There is no upshifting ! is it possible that the voltage regulator has an influence on the switching of the fluid drive ? The transmission on the 41's is a vacamatic the fluid drive is another part associated with the clutch and flywheel. Normally the transmission defaults to the under drives 1st in low and 3rd in high. If your car is using 2nd in low and direct in high the shaft at the end of the vacuum pod is probably pulled to the left off shift lever. You can manually place the rod back on the shift lever from under the car, if this is the problem you lock out cable might be restricting the return of the vacuum pod shaft returning to the shift lever. You can see that my vacuum pod rod is off the shift lever to the left of the green shift lever locking mine in 2nd and direct as I have a diaphragm leak. To place the rod back on the lever, push lever back and swivel the vacuum pod assembly to the right placing the end of the shaft on the shift lever. Just a bit wordy. Edited September 21, 2017 by 1949 Goat
Alex Posted September 22, 2017 Report Posted September 22, 2017 Thanks for the explanation I have removed the fuse that I can drive at all ! With the fuse ,they have no upshift automatic ! I Think the problem can be that the Governor not works well ! And an other problem that i have is when the reverse is inserted ,jammed the lever and I can not switch back ! Do you know this problem ?
1949 Wraith Posted September 22, 2017 Report Posted September 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Alex said: Thanks for the explanation I have removed the fuse that I can drive at all ! With the fuse ,they have no upshift automatic ! I Think the problem can be that the Governor not works well ! And an other problem that i have is when the reverse is inserted ,jammed the lever and I can not switch back ! Do you know this problem ? When the transmission like mine is locked into the 2nd and direct gears, as yours is I believe. If there is any load on the gears the column shift lever will jam in that position even with the clutch in. An example is; I have a 2X4 board to position my car when I pull into my garage. If I pull up against the board in gear the column shift will not move out of that position, I can not move the car even with the clutch in(still can't figure that out). To release the lever I have to start the car and move over the board, once the pressure is off the gears the car shifts into neutral and shift properly into all ranges. In your case if you are stuck in reverse I suspect there is a decline putting a load on the reverse gear. Try starting your car and reversing slightly and as the car moves shift into neutral.
chrysler1941 Posted September 22, 2017 Report Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, 1949 Goat said: When the transmission like mine is locked into the 2nd and direct gears, as yours is I believe. If there is any load on the gears the column shift lever will jam in that position even with the clutch in. An example is; I have a 2X4 board to position my car when I pull into my garage. If I pull up against the board in gear the column shift will not move out of that position, I can not move the car even with the clutch in(still can't figure that out). To release the lever I have to start the car and move over the board, once the pressure is off the gears the car shifts into neutral and shift properly into all ranges. In your case if you are stuck in reverse I suspect there is a decline putting a load on the reverse gear. Try starting your car and reversing slightly and as the car moves shift into neutral. Could also be worn linkage. When it happens i Just push the car back with my foot. Some years ago I made this electrical diagram from the original and shaved off everything to have a better view of the electrics and find out more about the "magic" of the transmission. Maybe it's useful for Alex, as he's also mentioning fuses. I'm including both. Edited September 22, 2017 by chrysler1941
Alex Posted September 25, 2017 Report Posted September 25, 2017 Thank`s for your tips / 1949 Goat & 1941 Chrysler This weekend i have changed the Voltage Regulator , because i have a overload at the batterie ! Now it is between 7,2 & 7,4 Volt . Bevor it was at 8,2 Volt !!!! I thought that could also be a reason that I had no upshifting ! But it`s still no upshifting !I think i have to change the Transmission Solenoid Relay too !What do you think about that ?I Think the problem with the column shift will not move out of that position is common on this transmission ! When you drive reverse up it is very heavy to move the car with the foot and than is it a big problem to move out the shift lever !!!!!
1949 Wraith Posted September 25, 2017 Report Posted September 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Alex said: Thank`s for your tips / 1949 Goat & 1941 Chrysler This weekend i have changed the Voltage Regulator , because i have a overload at the batterie ! Now it is between 7,2 & 7,4 Volt . Bevor it was at 8,2 Volt !!!! I thought that could also be a reason that I had no upshifting ! But it`s still no upshifting !I think i have to change the Transmission Solenoid Relay too !What do you think about that ?I Think the problem with the column shift will not move out of that position is common on this transmission ! When you drive reverse up it is very heavy to move the car with the foot and than is it a big problem to move out the shift lever !!!!! Make sure your idle on the engine is set low as it is a requirement for the transmission to upshift properly
chrysler1941 Posted September 25, 2017 Report Posted September 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Alex said: Thank`s for your tips / 1949 Goat & 1941 Chrysler This weekend i have changed the Voltage Regulator , because i have a overload at the batterie ! Now it is between 7,2 & 7,4 Volt . Bevor it was at 8,2 Volt !!!! I thought that could also be a reason that I had no upshifting ! But it`s still no upshifting !I think i have to change the Transmission Solenoid Relay too !What do you think about that ?I Think the problem with the column shift will not move out of that position is common on this transmission ! When you drive reverse up it is very heavy to move the car with the foot and than is it a big problem to move out the shift lever !!!!! Seems to me you're hoping it's an electrical problem. As 1949Goat mentions could be high idle, but also : FAILURE TO UPSHIFT (a) Electrical Governor permanently grounded. Relay inoperative. Blown relay fuse. Kickdown switch permanently grounded. Wiring circuits grounded. (b) Hydraulic Insufficient or improper oil in transmission (10-W engine oil-3 pints capacity). (ISO-32 Hyd oil 1.41 Litre) Oil pump producing less than 40 lbs. pressure. Restricted or bound pilot valve and main valve. Relief valve stuck in open position.
Alex Posted September 26, 2017 Report Posted September 26, 2017 (edited) i will check this parts if they work correct ! Has someone of you an explosion view drawing of the governor ? i have bought a NOS U-Drive Kickdown switch plate and will change it ! I Think it is better to see on the drawing how the parts are correct ! And i think my wiring is awful ! Does knows someone of you where i can get a complete wiring harness ? Edited September 26, 2017 by Alex
chrysler1941 Posted September 26, 2017 Report Posted September 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, Alex said: i will check this parts if they work correct ! Has someone of you an explosion view drawing of the governor ? i have bought a NOS U-Drive Kickdown switch plate and will change it ! I Think it is better to see on the drawing how the parts are correct ! And i think my wiring is awful ! Does knows someone of you where i can get a complete wiring harness ?
Alex Posted September 26, 2017 Report Posted September 26, 2017 Thank`s this is perfect ! And about the wiring harness do you know a place to buy ? 3 minutes ago, chrysler1941 said:
chrysler1941 Posted September 26, 2017 Report Posted September 26, 2017 There are several. Have no experiences with any. Maybe others can comment http://www.harnessesunlimited.com/new forms/chrys web page.pdf http://www.riwire.com/
DonaldSmith Posted September 26, 2017 Report Posted September 26, 2017 (edited) Hey, that Dodge is a Town Sedan, of which we have spoken recently. Edited September 27, 2017 by DonaldSmith typo - that, not hat
chrysler1941 Posted September 27, 2017 Report Posted September 27, 2017 I've always loved DeSoto's rebellious design
Royal Duke Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Posted October 16, 2017 Hey guys, I have still not figured out the problem with my 1941 Royal downshifting to the lower gear (LL from LH or HL from HH). I am convinced, perhaps wrongly, that it is due to a loss of vacuum. So my question is, where are the pilot valve and control valve located? Viewing the "Tech" manuals, they show the M5 and not the M4 vacamatic transmission. Your help would be greatly appreciated. It is getting cool out here now, and I'd like to get this straightened out. Duke
55 Fargo Posted October 16, 2017 Report Posted October 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, Royal Duke said: Hey guys, I have still not figured out the problem with my 1941 Royal downshifting to the lower gear (LL from LH or HL from HH). I am convinced, perhaps wrongly, that it is due to a loss of vacuum. So my question is, where are the pilot valve and control valve located? Viewing the "Tech" manuals, they show the M5 and not the M4 vacamatic transmission. Your help would be greatly appreciated. It is getting cool out here now, and I'd like to get this straightened out. Duke I will post the diagrams in a few minutes
Royal Duke Posted October 17, 2017 Author Report Posted October 17, 2017 Thank you 1955 Fargo. I will trace out the wiring on my car to see if it matches what you sent. Another thing I think i will try is to use some carb cleaner to see if possibly the kickdown is stuck inside the carburetor and thus affecting the shifting of the transmission.
Cliff Posted December 25, 2018 Report Posted December 25, 2018 I had two 41 Chryslers. One was a Windsor and still have a Royal. The Windsor was stolen along with $5000.00 worth of ham equipment. I almost had it finished and still have the engine and enough trim for four cars. I also have three transmissions (2 3- speed and 1 4-speed) fluid drives. I also have a 46-48 trans. I have one problem, in that I am missing the Kickdown operating levers both inner and outer. I have many parts for trade!! I hope someone can help. Cliff
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