3046moparcoupe Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 I just completed the 1st step in this Scarebird Disc brake conversion to the front of our 1946 Plymouth Club Coupe. Everything went easy breezy, however when the hubs are seated, snugged up, castle nut in place, etc...buttoned up.....I have just slightly over 1/4 " of the spindle lobe, that the inner seal rides on, exposed. This spindle lobe is 9/16" deep, and with 1/4 " - 5/16 " of the lobe showing, that leaves me now with the scarebird kit inner seal riding on the remaining outer 1/4 " - 5/16 " of the spindle lobe. Looks to me like the seal can still do it's job as it does sufficiently contact the spindle seal lobe, but I was somewhat disappointed to see that area of the spindle now exposed to the environment. Just wondering, if the folks on here who did there Scarebird conversions, also experienced the same thing ? In reading through the forum archives, I only found one individual who had experienced a problem with the hub inner seal not touching the inner spindle lobe, I believe Scarebird finally sent him a recommendation for a deeper seal. However I couldn't find anymore detail than that. Obviously, it's a kit, parts an pieces engineered together to work, but it has me wondering on this end, as I haven't read where anyone else has mentioned this in regards to their Scarebird upgrades....so just thought I might ask around....thanks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 contact Scarebird for their answer and recommendation...I know you trying to draw on others who have been here before....BUT...how long will wit take for that person who may relate be before coming online to read and reply. If it looks funky and truly you have a concern...where better to get the skinny but from the source. For certain you wish proper depth seating to ensure that the seal does its jobs to protect against dirt and water intrusion.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted November 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) You bet ,...1st thing I did was contact Scarebird, their reply was "all the seal has to do is ride on the spindle lobe to do it's job, Don't over think this, use it and drive it "...Can't really argue with them about their replay back, as basically it's true,....but sorta pushing the limit's of acceptable by just barely making it in my opinion, and the fact that you can't see this coming until you've already installed everything, in respect to if you did want to do a return is sorta lame in my opinion,(also I hate to see that part of the spindle get eat up by exposure if it can be prevented.) I've also sent some individual messages to a few folks here on the forum, whom I spoke with up front, who also had done Scarebird kits on P15's, so we'll see what they write back. (yes - I checked their last log on to the forum before sending them a message and they all have been on within the last day, so I expect they'll get back to me in quick enough fashion....look there, one fellow has already written me back.) and Yep - I definitely wanted to send this out to the general forum for reply's back, gonna cover as many bases as I can,...I asked a ton of questions about the scarebird kit and got at least a half dozen reply's back from folks who had installed it,..before I ordered this kit, and not one individual mentioned anything about a gap showing on the spindle. Surely my forum brothers would have warned me if something wasn't right here, ..I only found one individual here on the forum who was doing the conversion on his Desoto and had a similar problem, but he thought his seal was just barely touching the end. So either the oem spindle lengths are not standard, or the new hub's are not being cut to spec, or this gap is just what you get and folks just failed to mention it. the seals they sent me, and that are spec'd out in the Scarebird disc brake upgrade kit are as follows: 1.750 ID, x 2.565 OD. x 1/4 wide. I spent a few hours on the computer and have found 3ea National brand seals that also have the exact same id and od dimension but are 1/2" wide, (which would seem like a solution for this), however each seal has a different type #. either type 45, 47 or 48. which I'm guessing has to do with the seal lip material, I will have to speak with a Timken/National/Federal Mogul tech person I suspect to learn more. Thanks Plymouthy, I appreciate you talking the time to reply to this. Steve... Edited November 5, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branded Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 I also dealt with this same issue. I contacted Scarebird with my concerns and was given the same response he gave you. If the hub was designed with a bit more material on the inboard side it would allow the seal to ride in the correct place machined on the spindle. I haven't got the 49 Wayfarer on the road yet so I can't tell if the seal is going to cause issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 sounds like this may be the classic one size fits all but fits some better scenario...while not having first hand hands-on of a Scarebird product...was not their original setup for these cars the use of the original hub and removing the rivets and drums for disc mounting?...In the beginning this was not a reported issue on Scarebird and the biggest single factor at that time was the scare tactic advertising and outright slandering of other kits....on my memory, I have to admit..this was back in the days of "Norm Coupe" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casper50 Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 my scarebird kit fit my dodge coupe without a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted November 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) Casper, thanks for the reply back, are you saying that you do not have the 1/4" gap between the back of your new hub and the back wall of the spindle ? If so do you remember if you got a 1/4" wide or 1/2" wide seal when you did your conversion ? thanks Steve Edited November 5, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casper50 Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 No gap and I didn't measure it. I bought the kit about 18 months ago at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumble48 Posted November 6, 2016 Report Share Posted November 6, 2016 Completed the Scarebird front Disc conversion and the AAJ dual master conversion August. I noticed the gap you are referring to, but in driving it since, it seems to drive and brake fine... no grease loose anywhere... craig 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted November 7, 2016 Report Share Posted November 7, 2016 I put my scarebird on a couple of years ago. Still working on the car so don't have a ton of miles on it but have had the hubs off a couple of times now while working on other things. I do see that my hubs don't fit flush with the back of the spindle but have not had any problems with them. Make sure you slide the hubs on as far as they can go. Mine were a tight fit the first time and had to use the nut to snug them all the way on. I think the new seal was tight at first but they fit fine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 I have had 4 wheel disc brakes on my Oz 1940 Dodge since the mid 1970's.......the front discs are an Oz Leyland PBR brand 11" vented disc, they stop well.........this issue that you guys refer to is because the original stub axles are machined for a drum brake which by its very design uses a fixed stamped steel backing plate that when bolted onto the stub axle provides weather protection to the stub axle, axle hub and grease seal...........disc brakes by their design or at least as a result of their adaption to another non OEM stub axle don't have a stamped piece of sheet metal providing this weather protection as generally the disc rotor sits hard against the inner bearing machined area with the grease seal riding on the original larger diameter seal surface........unless the seal is torn, cracked or in some way the neoprene lets water etc past its inner facing "face" there is no problem......I have seen over the years various disc brakes adaptions on various cars, mostly hotrods and some have indeed had sheet metal, etc to give some protection to the seal but in general as our cars are not going 4 wheel driving I wouldn't worry about this.........when installing the disc rotor make a mark where the oil seal runs and before the final installation clean, prepare and paint this area to stop any rust.............btw from the attached pic you can see that my caliper bracket is a circular piece of steel that provides a little extra protection than just a basic caliper bracket...........my Oz 2 cents worth.........Andy Douglas 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 There needs to be a gap between the new hub and the Scarebird bracket. Caution. These brackets are left and right handed and must be put on correctly as per instructions with the correct side facing in. After the hub is all the way in the nut must be not be overly tight and backed off to the nearest cotter pin location. This 1/4 inch gap is much adeau about nothing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branded Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, dale said: There needs to be a gap between the new hub and the Scarebird bracket. Caution. These brackets are left and right handed and must be put on correctly as per instructions with the correct side facing in. After the hub is all the way in the nut must be not be overly tight and backed off to the nearest cotter pin location. This 1/4 inch gap is much adeau about nothing. It's not so much the 1/4" gap that has some concerned, it's that the seal lip just barely goes over the sealing area on the spindle. I'm talking not much more than a 1/16" coverage. If the hub was just and 1/8" deeper on the inboard side it would allow for better seal contact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarer Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 Actually, a ¼" gap is something to consider, and the lip seal placement is important. From an engineering standpoint I'd be wondering what is causing it to stand proud and is there a remedy. It certainly could be that all of the associated parts stack-up to that position and perhaps w/o some machining it is what it is, but personally I'd be concerned about the seal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted November 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 Thank you all for the input, I appreciate every reply back...Andy, my neighbor and I were looking at this when I 1st added the brackets and hubs, and his 1st comment also was to paint the exposed spindle area,....which I thought was a good idea - ) even though I got to admit - I had been super clean that day, absolutely zero wind that day at the front of the garage, etc...I was not wanting to remove the hub and re-do that buttoning up process) anyway - it's a good idea . I measured the projection of the seal lobe on the spindle, before placing the hub, when I did the second disc upgrade, and I felt to have 1/4" max of seal contact which I thought looked like just enough for both sides of the seal to ride on the lobe, bit it's right out on the very end for sure - pushing it,... so I was concerned about this area of the spindle rusting...yeah - I know it's somewhat a mute point in regards to present operations of the unit, but it would have been nice for this to fit and cover correctly. I know your not supposed to fall in love with them, but I always do... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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