Tomahawk715 Posted October 8, 2016 Report Posted October 8, 2016 I tried searching this online and this site with little success--or not what I wanted to find. Two weeks ago I swapped a 79 Z28 for a half finished 38 Plymouth Bus Coupe. The PO had swapped in a pacer front end, 318/727 and challenger (I'm told) rear end. Everything looks "ok" I guess strength and operation wise. Welded and braced to hell. All the brake components are brand new. My issue is it looks like crap, pacer stuff is t easy/cheap to replace I'm told and the steering shaft takes a weird path. The car was being wired when the last owner passed so I've not driven it--nor has it been since the swaps. So to the question--or rather two questions-- I purchased a 4dr parts car with a very nice frame. From what I could find prior to the purchase it is the same frame as a 2dr. Is that correct? Second and most important--is there anyone who makes a weld in vehicle specific front crossmember/mustang 2 system? I put a heidts one in my 48 Chevy pickup but I'm finding nothing for this car i really want to avoid front halfing this frame or doing a camaro front--but I just don't know if I can live with the fugly pacer setup thanks in advance Quote
dpollo Posted October 8, 2016 Report Posted October 8, 2016 The only part of your question I can answer is that the sedan frame is the same except for the center body mount will be farther back on a coupe's frame because of the location of the B pillar (door length) I owned and drove a 37 Plymouth sedan for 30 years and it drove so well with its original front end that I would never have changed it. 1 Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted October 8, 2016 Author Report Posted October 8, 2016 Thanks for confirming that info. The coupe already has the swap done and the 4dr has no front suspension. He considered a crown Vic swap--and that's what was under it. 5 inches too wide. He kept that and I got a body frame and rear end. But I picked it up in hopes of building a better chassis. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 8, 2016 Report Posted October 8, 2016 (edited) the Pacer is typically not the most conventional swap out there and I have seen it used before but most folks work with what is on had and of no extra cost verse most any other means/methods especially if that person was known for fabrication...now albeit it an ugly job...what technically do think the drawback or overall restrictions may be with this setup there are a few other sub frames that are easy and affordable but as with most all sub-framing jobs, the hanging of the front bumper is always the most involved section.....rest is a walk in the park Edited October 8, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams Quote
DJ194950 Posted October 8, 2016 Report Posted October 8, 2016 Any subframe change to your car Will require 2-3 u-joints from box/or rack and pinion to steer column hookups. 3 will require a support bearing to stop the shaft from whipping around. Fatmansfabrication supposed makes some M11 front ends but are for stock frame that you do not currently have but maybe could have again?? What fits the best? Need to do your homework and only please yourself. DJ Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 9, 2016 Report Posted October 9, 2016 (edited) fatman MII are not for stock frame as you have to eliminate the spring pockets, they sell the front frame rails separate to make their set up work for you..this setup is quite expensive and labor intensive and truly more involved than many subframes..... picture removed as it tends to confuse folks Edited October 10, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted October 9, 2016 Author Report Posted October 9, 2016 51 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said: the Pacer is typically not the most conventional swap out there and I have seen it used before but most folks work with what is on had and of no extra cost verse most any other means/methods especially if that person was known for fabrication...now albeit it an ugly job...what technically do think the drawback or overall restrictions may be with this setup there are a few other sub frames that are easy and affordable but as with most all sub-framing jobs, the hanging of the front bumper is always the most involved section.....rest is a walk in the park Well it appears it was too wide for the rails so he had to add material to the outside of the frame and then boxed it. Front appears to track true with the rears and doesn't get into the fenders so maybe it would be ok. I suppose I could finish wiring the motor and take it for a spin first. Again it appears solid and functional but looks horrible. He deleted the front and rear fenders--rolled the back pan and frenched the rear taillight and plate. So I suppose I could take some measurements for a camaro front subframe as a starting point instead. Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted October 9, 2016 Author Report Posted October 9, 2016 DJ--I do have a stock frame with no front suspension--the 4dr parts car. I really only snatched it so I could start fresh if there was a better/different option. Grab it when you find it--not a lot of fresh clean non rusted 38 Plymouth frames kicking around Michigan. Quote
DJ194950 Posted October 9, 2016 Report Posted October 9, 2016 Tim that pic does not appear to be a Fatman front stub with M11 installed. Did I miss something here? That looks more like one of your other front ends install you have done. By the way, just the front Fatman front frame replacement is now at $995 plus ship just for the frame stub. DJ Quote
Andydodge Posted October 9, 2016 Report Posted October 9, 2016 (edited) Tomahawk.............. my understanding of 38 Plymouths is that they used a semi elliptic front suspension on essentially straight frame rails.......I'd check with a few rod shops as I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Mustang2 type front end that would fit or be easily adaptable......a common swap is also a Mk1/2/3 Jaguar XJ6 front end..........tho' they are fairly wide so it maybe worth checking................I'd stay away from any sort of frame swap unless you like lots of work........lol...........regards, andyd Edited October 9, 2016 by Andydodge Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 9, 2016 Report Posted October 9, 2016 (edited) On 10/8/2016 at 8:43 PM, DJ194950 said: Tim that pic does not appear to be a Fatman front stub with M11 installed. Did I miss something here? That looks more like one of your other front ends install you have done. By the way, just the front Fatman front frame replacement is now at $995 plus ship just for the frame stub. DJ the Fatman is something I would never consider due to overall costs, by your post I see the rails have increased about 300.00 since introduced it seems...as for missing something, I have deleted my pictures as they have confused some folks so will bow out of the thread... Edited October 10, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 9, 2016 Report Posted October 9, 2016 10 hours ago, Tomahawk715 said: Well it appears it was too wide for the rails so he had to add material to the outside of the frame and then boxed it. Front appears to track true with the rears and doesn't get into the fenders so maybe it would be ok. I suppose I could finish wiring the motor and take it for a spin first. Again it appears solid and functional but looks horrible. He deleted the front and rear fenders--rolled the back pan and frenched the rear taillight and plate. So I suppose I could take some measurements for a camaro front subframe as a starting point instead. the width of the front suspension and more than not the updated matching rear axle will be easy to work with for fitting the fender with the use of positive off set wheels of most all modern cars. As for deleteing the front and rear fenders....it has left the car class completely and gone total rat rod by all descriptions you have made so far.. Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted October 9, 2016 Author Report Posted October 9, 2016 My apologies--bumpers--he removed the bumper brackets. Fenders are still present. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 9, 2016 Report Posted October 9, 2016 whew....there is hope...lol I could not image this car on the road without fenders...the tucked wheel well in the rear and the shape/style of the cowl do not make for a smooth body line with fenders removed... Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted October 9, 2016 Author Report Posted October 9, 2016 The only outward appearance changes so far are the removal of the bumpers/brackets, removal of the rear tail lights which are now frenched into the tail pan under the deck lid and frenching of plate in the same location. Functionally the front suspension, motor trans and rear. Obviously the wiring is now 12 volt system. He moved a section of the firewall back to accommodate the drivetrain swap and make room for the 318. And put a mopar steering column in it--not sure what it came out of at this point. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 9, 2016 Report Posted October 9, 2016 I think you would do well at this point to find a set of offset wheels if the suspension is a tad wide and go from there to determine if drivability issues...anything now would be second guessing an unconfirmed...unless you just got to install components/things to your particular liking or have more time and money on hand than you know what to do with... Quote
Andydodge Posted October 10, 2016 Report Posted October 10, 2016 Is it me or am I getting old?.........that body and frame don't look like a 38 mopar to me.........more like a 48..........lol........andyd Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 10, 2016 Report Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Andydodge said: Is it me or am I getting old?.........that body and frame don't look like a 38 mopar to me.........more like a 48..........lol........andyd if it is my picture you are referring to I never once stated it was a 38..only stated there are other ways to do a sub frame without going MII or a GM I have deleted the pics so as not to cause confusion.... Edited October 10, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted October 10, 2016 Author Report Posted October 10, 2016 I appreciate the continued feedback and ideas. I'm certainly in no huge rush. I want to have a solid plan before I do anything to my "spare" frame. Again not to many rust free straight frames in Michigan for a 38. Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Posted February 10, 2017 Found this from an ad online but it's a dead thread and the person didn't answer where it came from--thoughts? Quote
DJ194950 Posted February 10, 2017 Report Posted February 10, 2017 Certainly Appears to be the way the earliest Ford MII was done using all the stock components in including the stock crossmember from the MII. Cannot tell from the pic but should still have used the lower rod that connected to the lower a-arm angled back about 2 ft. to the frame mount with rubber insulators (both ends) that allowed the up/down movement. A Cheap way to accomplish a suspension But sloppy. It was eliminated with the newer aftermarket install kits with a Real lower wishbone mounted at front And back of the crossmember. DJ Quote
John Reddie Posted February 11, 2017 Report Posted February 11, 2017 On 10/8/2016 at 5:59 PM, dpollo said: The only part of your question I can answer is that the sedan frame is the same except for the center body mount will be farther back on a coupe's frame because of the location of the B pillar (door length) I owned and drove a 37 Plymouth sedan for 30 years and it drove so well with its original front end that I would never have changed it. I have to agree with you dpollo. Those old Plymouth's were nice handling cars. 1 Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Report Posted February 11, 2017 Again just not really an option now--current frame under the car has been changed and other is stripped of the front suspension Quote
Tomahawk715 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Report Posted February 11, 2017 Another view--pacer front end Quote
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