P15 Front Suspension Rebuilt -- heavy steering

[Drdialtone]

OK, I need some help!  I had my front suspension rebuilt about 6,000 miles ago.  The parts (kingpins) were from a quality provider, but when the suspension was put back together the steering really takes a lot of effort.  There is more.  Because I never take my time when doing things, at the same time I put radial tires on the car.  

 

The mechanic who did the work said after the rebuild that it would loosen up with some miles on it.  It seems to me that 6,000 miles should have been sufficient break in?

 

I'm also told that the radial tires have more resistance at stop to rolling (5-10mph), and that bias ply tires would not provide as much resistance.

 

My conundrum:  Have the suspension taken a part, additional tapering of the kingpins?  OR Ditch the expensive radials and put bias ply tires on to improve steering?  

 

I have looked in the service manual under "hard steering" and the check points are:  10 Steering knuckle bushings (new, so n/a?), 2) Steering knuckle thrust bearings (new again n/a?), 3) Tie rod ends (new), 4) Cross shaft (?), 5) Worm and tube assembly (told that it's possible this is original and has gummy junk in the box...?), 6) Jacket and jacket bushing (there doesn't seem to be any issue here as there isn't any noticeable binding).

 

Either way, I am looking at significant expense (front end again) or bailing on the radial tires (expensive Cokers).  HELP!  I'm really in need of suggestions and would appreciate any feedback to get me in the right direction for a solution!!  Oh, and I should also mention that at freeways speeds the car tracks straight and requires little steering adjustment.

[suntennis]

If done correctly, there should be no break in for front end work. Another way to look at it is that when the car was new there was no break in other than something with the engine. The radial tires should work for you but be a bit harder to turn when trying to park. Keep the tire pressure above 32psi. You might try lifting the front end off the ground and seeing how hard it is to turn. If it is hard to turn, the problem is probably a steering box issue. Steering box adjustment is made with the wheels pointed straight ahead. If it is easy to turn, the problem could be toe in adjustment.

[Andydodge]

Drdial..........I replaced the 6.00x16 crossply tyres that the 41 coupe had with 195/75x15 and 235/75 x15 Coker Classic radials and ran 35psi all round......and it steered great........what tyre pressure are you running?.......also the kingpins aren't tapered(well not to my knowledge) however the kingpin bushes must be reamed to the correct size to suit the kingpins...........in the front end rebuild did they replace all 4 tierod ends?......also you mention the steering box is full of gummy junk.........cleaning out this with the steering box in the car isn't easy tho' but you maybe able to take the top cover off and get the junk out, the box should use a heavy oil but as the lower seal usually shits itself allowing the oil to leak out previous owners may have used a grease which while you think should work, it doesn't as it is too thick to keep around the bearings and bushes.........or bite the bullet and take the steering box out, chase up new bearings, bushes, worm & sector shaft and seal and get it rebuilt..........other thing you mention it was rebuilt 6000 miles ago..........when were the kingpins regreased?...........the workshop manual lubrication chart shows the front suspension and kingpins needing a grease every 1000miles............hope this helps............andyd   

[mopar_earl]

Don't blame the radials, it's not them.

You will have to isolate the components until you find the source. Disconnect the steering linkage from the steering box, than from each wheel. Turn each wheel, if hard to turn, issue is in King pins. Make sure the tie rod ends aren't the issue by isolating each joint.

Earl

[Drdialtone]

If done correctly, there should be no break in for front end work. Another way to look at it is that when the car was new there was no break in other than something with the engine. The radial tires should work for you but be a bit harder to turn when trying to park. Keep the tire pressure above 32psi. You might try lifting the front end off the ground and seeing how hard it is to turn. If it is hard to turn, the problem is probably a steering box issue. Steering box adjustment is made with the wheels pointed straight ahead. If it is easy to turn, the problem could be toe in adjustment.

 

Well, that was my thought too.  I'm running the tires at 36 PSI, as a friend suggested that lower air pressure would cause more resistance.  That didn't change anything.  I'm taking it into a shop next week with the service manual and have them go through each component until we get this answered!

[Drdialtone]

Drdial..........I replaced the 6.00x16 crossply tyres that the 41 coupe had with 195/75x15 and 235/75 x15 Coker Classic radials and ran 35psi all round......and it steered great........what tyre pressure are you running?.......also the kingpins aren't tapered(well not to my knowledge) however the kingpin bushes must be reamed to the correct size to suit the kingpins...........in the front end rebuild did they replace all 4 tierod ends?......also you mention the steering box is full of gummy junk.........cleaning out this with the steering box in the car isn't easy tho' but you maybe able to take the top cover off and get the junk out, the box should use a heavy oil but as the lower seal usually shits itself allowing the oil to leak out previous owners may have used a grease which while you think should work, it doesn't as it is too thick to keep around the bearings and bushes.........or bite the bullet and take the steering box out, chase up new bearings, bushes, worm & sector shaft and seal and get it rebuilt..........other thing you mention it was rebuilt 6000 miles ago..........when were the kingpins regreased?...........the workshop manual lubrication chart shows the front suspension and kingpins needing a grease every 1000miles............hope this helps............andyd   

AndyDodge,  I've got the same size tires and run at 36psi.  The suspension parts were all new from Rare Parts INC.  All tie rod ends, bushings, etc were replaced.  The kingpins were greased when put back together, and have lubed all of the grease fittings several times in the 6,000 miles.  I haven't yet seen the steering box, but that was suggested as a possible contributor, so that's next and a check of the adjustment in the steering box as well.  When I bought the car the front suspension was completely shot, so it's hard to compare with the new.  The car tracks straight on the freeway.  Someone else mentioned camber adjustment.  Is there camber adjustment on the P15?

[Drdialtone]

Don't blame the radials, it's not them.

You will have to isolate the components until you find the source. Disconnect the steering linkage from the steering box, than from each wheel. Turn each wheel, if hard to turn, issue is in King pins. Make sure the tie rod ends aren't the issue by isolating each joint.

Earl

Earl,

 

Thanks, from most feedback it seems that the radials have nothing to do with my issues.  I'm glad to eliminate that from the equation! Your advice is my next step...thanks!!

[Andydodge]

Yep, camber adjustment is via the upper outer bush/pin.......undo the lock bolt and adjust to 0 to +3/4 degree......there is a "special" tool but a hacksaw and a piece of 1/4 steel plate or an old large spanner can make the tool.........your service manual should have all the specs........another thing that's generally overlooked but won't have any effect on the hard to steer problem, actually maybe the opposite is that these cars used a pair of rubber "steering box isolators" , one between the box and inside of the frame, the other on the outside of the frame between the triangular plate and frame........the 3 bolts that hold the steering box to the frame go thru the triangular plate, rubber isolators, frame, inside isolator and screw into the steering box...........they can get VERY soft over the years via oil soaking and replacement of them will definitely firm up the steering wander...............but as mentioned camber is adjustable..........regards, andyd 

[Dan Hiebert]

Sounds to me like the worm gear / sector shaft adjustment may be too tight. (Steering box)  If I remember correctly, it should only take 8 lbs. of effort to turn the steering wheel with the front tires off the ground. (double check my memory with the shop manual, I know its there, but don't have access to it right now.)  There are two places to adjust this, one adjusts how the gears mesh, that is the nut w/ the star-looking lock washer under it on top of the box and is intended to adjust for wear-and-tear, age, etc.  Most likely its the other adjustment, which is more of a factory setting, that is with shims between the steering box body and the end plate the steering shaft and worm gear assembly are held in with.  It's very easy to omit putting those shims back in, not putting all of them back, etc. after a rebuild or other maintenance.  Too thin and the steering takes too much effort, and will eventually ruin the bearings and races in the steering box. 

[Drdialtone]

Yep, camber adjustment is via the upper outer bush/pin.......undo the lock bolt and adjust to 0 to +3/4 degree......there is a "special" tool but a hacksaw and a piece of 1/4 steel plate or an old large spanner can make the tool.........your service manual should have all the specs........another thing that's generally overlooked but won't have any effect on the hard to steer problem, actually maybe the opposite is that these cars used a pair of rubber "steering box isolators" , one between the box and inside of the frame, the other on the outside of the frame between the triangular plate and frame........the 3 bolts that hold the steering box to the frame go thru the triangular plate, rubber isolators, frame, inside isolator and screw into the steering box...........they can get VERY soft over the years via oil soaking and replacement of them will definitely firm up the steering wander...............but as mentioned camber is adjustable..........regards, andyd 

 

Great info...thanks Andy!  I'll have everyone's input printed out and in the car when it goes in the shop on Tuesday...Cheers!!

[Drdialtone]

Sounds to me like the worm gear / sector shaft adjustment may be too tight. (Steering box)  If I remember correctly, it should only take 8 lbs. of effort to turn the steering wheel with the front tires off the ground. (double check my memory with the shop manual, I know its there, but don't have access to it right now.)  There are two places to adjust this, one adjusts how the gears mesh, that is the nut w/ the star-looking lock washer under it on top of the box and is intended to adjust for wear-and-tear, age, etc.  Most likely its the other adjustment, which is more of a factory setting, that is with shims between the steering box body and the end plate the steering shaft and worm gear assembly are held in with.  It's very easy to omit putting those shims back in, not putting all of them back, etc. after a rebuild or other maintenance.  Too thin and the steering takes too much effort, and will eventually ruin the bearings and races in the steering box. 

Dan,  Just looked that up in the service manual... "The effort required to turn the steering wheel though its mid-position should be from 1 to 2 1/2 pounds when measured with pull scale at the rim of the steering wheel, provided the worm bearing adjustment is correct."  I sure hope that the shims were replaced and that no damage as you mentioned to the steering box has happened!! (Gulp)

[James_Douglas]

You stated that:

 

"OK, I need some help!  I had my front suspension rebuilt about 6,000 miles ago.  The parts (kingpins) were from a quality provider, but when the suspension was put back together the steering really takes a lot of effort."

 

This sounds to me that the King Pins were not properly reamed or honed.  Did the mechanic IN FACT line ream or line hone the bushings in the spindle?  If all he did was press them in and did not ream-hone then that is the problem.

 

I do not like reaming as most people do not do it correct and have reamers with warn blades.  I actually purchased a Sanden Hone of the correct size and gave it to my machinist and had him use it on the bushings.  When done there was zero detectible clearance but the pin would spin in the spindle like a fine bearing.

 

Also, did he check the thrust washer/bearing and if so what was the final clearance?  If he did not write it down, I doubt he did it.

 

James.

Edited April 23, 2016 by James_Douglas

[Drdialtone]

Sounds to me like the worm gear / sector shaft adjustment may be too tight. (Steering box)  If I remember correctly, it should only take 8 lbs. of effort to turn the steering wheel with the front tires off the ground. (double check my memory with the shop manual, I know its there, but don't have access to it right now.)  There are two places to adjust this, one adjusts how the gears mesh, that is the nut w/ the star-looking lock washer under it on top of the box and is intended to adjust for wear-and-tear, age, etc.  Most likely its the other adjustment, which is more of a factory setting, that is with shims between the steering box body and the end plate the steering shaft and worm gear assembly are held in with.  It's very easy to omit putting those shims back in, not putting all of them back, etc. after a rebuild or other maintenance.  Too thin and the steering takes too much effort, and will eventually ruin the bearings and races in the steering box. 

 

Thanks Dan, I've added that to the list of items for my mechanic to check out!