pulleys and belts for accessories

[DJ194950]

There is also a spray on splatter shield avail. at any welding supply store the keeps the "dingle berryers" from sticking to surrounding steel. Cheap. 

Can be wiped off and painted over.

 

Best,

 

Doug

[Dave72dt]

  It looks like the gas may not have been on for some of those welds. I run out about 6 inches of wire after turning the gas on and nip the wire off before attempting the first weld.  It ensures I have shielding gas at the tip.  Don't be afraid to turn the heat up a bit.  It looks like I/8 inch so it can take some to get good penetration.  Make some practice runs on some scrap of the same thickness to get your settings  correct before using up your good pieces.  Your welder should have a chart on it for ballpark settings for the metal thickness and wire gauge.  You can adjust it up or down from there to fine tune it.   It should sound like frying bacon  when it's right.  Keep at it.  Good welds take practice and concentration.  I've been doing this for years and still critique each and every weld.

[DonaldSmith]

I don't have gas.  (The welder, that is.)  It's a flux core wire welder.  I suppose I could read the instructions that came with it.  And practice. 

 

A man complimented a pianist and said "I'd do anything to be able to play that well!"  The pianist replied,"Practice a half-hour every day."  The man said, "Anything but that." 

[DonaldSmith]

Good enough. 

 

 

Good enough for me, anyway.  Some caulk to keep the road splash from getting through, some black paint, and good to go.   Next the crankshaft pulleys and damper go on.

 

This is the first time I used the welder in the garage, which has a 15 amp circuit while the welding instructions recommend 20 amp.   At its 80-amp setting, it calls for a 10% duty cycle, one chunk of time welding, and nine chunks of time resting.  That suits my duty cycle well.  ("Chunk of time" can be up to a minute, but I seldom persisted that long.) 

 

So, I'm out of the garage and everything closed up, in anticipation of the predicted rain and inch of snow.  Winter's last hurrah.  Bring it on!

 

Gosh, I'm almost through!  Figure out and fabricate some brackets for the alternator and PS pump, and get this puppy working.  (Bad metaphor; puppies don't work.)  I figured April to do the pulleys and accessories, and May to get the power steering working.  That leaves June and half of July to prepare for the DeSoto Convention. 

 

The DeSoto convention this year will be in Fort Wayne, Indiana on July 17th to 19th.  (Car show at the IUPU campus on Saturday the 19th.  Owners of Plymouths with DeSoto engines may be interested in doing the show.)   

[Don Coatney]

Good enough. 

 

the well (14) filler welded.JPG

 

 

 

So, I'm out of the garage and everything closed up, in anticipation of the predicted rain and inch of snow.  Winter's last hurrah.  Bring it on!

 

Fort Wayne is also expecting snow tonight. This morning I had to drive to Michigan a bit south of Detroit to do some banking. Was in the mid 60's when I left and mid 40's when I returned a few minutes ago.

 

 

 

The DeSoto convention this year will be in Fort Wayne, Indiana on July 17th to 19th.  (Car show at the IUPU campus on Saturday the 19th.  Owners of Plymouths with DeSoto engines may be interested in doing the show.)   

 

Toledo Joe has already informed me of the Desoto convention. I checked there flyer and they will have a special parking lot for vintage "friends" of Desoto. My car is still in Tennessee but I hope to have it up here before July. I close on my house tomorrow and my stuff arrives Friday so I will soon be an official Hoosier again.

[DonaldSmith]

Fabricated and installed the alternator bracket, to replace the stock bracket.

 

 

this moves the alternator down and farther away from the engine.  (It also moves the alternator forward a half-inch, to match the relocated crank pulley.) 

 

  

[DonaldSmith]

Now I'm thoroughly confused.

 

I shimmed out both the stock crank pulley and the water pump pulley a half-inch, but it looks like the water pump pulley has to come forward another quarter inch or so.  Were these pulleys always misaligned?

The stock crank pulley only goes on one way, since the TDC bolt hole is off center.   So I know that I didn't flip it. 

 

 

Is the crank flange too far forward?  I removed and replaced it a few times, trying to correct leaks at the front cover.  I measure 5/8" from the back of the hub to the front of the timing cover.  Is this correct?  

 

 

How far out of line can the pulleys be, before the belt excessively wears?

[Don Coatney]

This might or might not help. This is what the damper assembly on my Desoto engine looks like.

 

 

 

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

Thanks.  What you show is what I have. 

 

Since the crank hub seems to be out 1/4 inch too far, I flipped the stock pulley (after wallowing out the TDC hole.)  This brings the belt in line with the water pump pulley.  (I'm also reworking my fancy new alternator bracket to bring the alternator pulley back in line with the stock crank pulley.) 

 

The new billet pulley is next, then the damper.   

 

I expect to shim the fan out a quarter-inch to clear the new belt to run the new accessory*.  I had been figuring a half-inch,so this works out better.  Funny how things work out, eventually.

 

*(The new accessory shall remain unnamed, since this thread may be applicable to various new accessories.)

[DonaldSmith]

Installing studs to support an accessory bracket:

 

 

Today I drilled and tapped the block in the bottom location, and I'll be working on the location above it. . (Why can't I keep the drill on the center that I punched?  Oh, well, I'll adjust the holes on the bracket.)  

 

The block is about a quarter-inch thick here, and the water jacket is another 3/4 inches deep. The studs are 7/16-20 in the block and 7/16-14 exposed.  I cut the coarse threads closer to the fine end, so I wouldn't have to add spacers on the stud before installing a nut.  

 

The hole leaked about a quart of coolant, even though the block drain was open.  I wicked the coolant below the hole with a section of rope, and then cleaned the threads with alcohol.  (I had cleaned the studs with naptha.)

 

Then I installed the stud with threadlock, driving the stud home with the double nut trick. (Jam two nuts together to get a bolt or stud to turn.)  I'm counting on the threadlock to seal the threads.  If it doesn't, I'll slather some Permatex between the bracket and the block.

 

A third anchor point will be the side of the motor support bracket, that shiny metal thing below the water pump to the left.  I'll probably drill and tap a hole for a stud, but put a nut on the other side of the stud to secure the stud. 

 

Bottom right is the alternator bracket, which is bolted to the original holes in the block.  The alternator will be secured by the front part of the long bolt, with spacers front and back to locate the pulley in the right  plane. 

[DonaldSmith]

Installing studs to support an accessory bracket:

 

 

Today I drilled and tapped the block in the bottom location, and I'll be working on the location above it. . (Why can't I keep the drill on the center that I punched?  Oh, well, I'll adjust the holes on the bracket.)  

 

The block is about a quarter-inch thick here, and the water jacket is another 3/4 inches deep. The studs are 7/16-20 in the block and 7/16-14 exposed.  I cut the coarse threads closer to the fine end, so I wouldn't have to add spacers on the stud before installing a nut.  

 

The hole leaked about a quart of coolant, even though the block drain was open.  I wicked the coolant below the hole with a section of rope, and then cleaned the threads with alcohol.  (I had cleaned the studs with naptha.)

 

Then I installed the stud with threadlock, driving the stud home with the double nut trick. (Jam two nuts together to get a bolt or stud to turn.)  I'm counting on the threadlock to seal the threads.  If it doesn't, I'll slather some Permatex between the bracket and the block.

 

A third anchor point will be the side of the motor support bracket, that shiny metal thing below the water pump to the left.  I'll probably drill and tap a hole for a stud, but put a nut on the other side of the stud to secure the stud. 

 

Bottom right is the alternator bracket, which is bolted to the original holes in the block.  The alternator will be secured by the front part of the long bolt, with spacers front and back to locate the pulley in the right  plane. 

[DonaldSmith]

Bracket for Alternator:

 

 

Bracket for second accessory: 

 

[DonaldSmith]

Belts for accessories: 

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

The fan must go.  After adding the pulleys for the second accessory, I mocked up the radiator and checked the fan clearances or lack thereof.  

 

 

With the new pulleys, the fan must be shimmed forward at least a half inch.  In doing so, the fan kisses the radiator, and that isn't good. 

 

 

Moving the radiator forward would be a problem.  The U-shaped channel support has numerous weldnuts and threaded bumps which limit where the radiator flanges could be slipped in.  And I'm not going to mess with the radiator flanges themselves.  I would have to relocate the strut across the top of the U-frame, and if I move the radiator more than a half inch forward, I would have to notch the tops of the fenders.

 

So, it's delete the belt-driven fan and rely on a pusher fan.  The die is cast, or if there are two, the dice are cast.

 

I already have a working 12-volt fan with automatic controls. My concern is that it gets the 12 volts from the main battery and an accessory battery.  I would have to be conscientious about recharging the accessory battery, or I would be stuck in traffic, overheating.

 

Or I could go with a 6-volt fan, working off the main battery which is kept charged by the alternator.  I'm checking to see if 6-volt automatic temperature controls are available. 

[Don Coatney]

Checking for fan clearance. Been there done that.

 

 

Modifying the radiator bracket. Been there done that.

 

 

Relocating the support strut. Been there done that.

 

 

Notching the fenders. Been there done that.

 

 

Finding a 12 volt fan controller with the correct controlling temperatures. Been there done that.

 

 

Installing a pusher fan. Been there done that

 

 

Finding a 6 volt fan and controller. I have not been there nor done that. But remember, Failure is not an option.

 

One other thing, on my car the horns were located in front of the radiator. The stock horns had to disappear.

 

I went with these.

 

[DonaldSmith]

Don, I follow you.  Hmmm.

 

Relocate the support strut from in front of the radiator to behind the radiator, and make a new strut in front to support the pusher fan and controls.

Notch the fenders for the bottom of the radiator core, which protrudes more forward than the top.  (The core slopes in relation to the flanges and bracket.)

Do something with the horns.  My horn brackets screw into the front of the radiator bracket and would be in the way. I am sure that there is a creative solution.    

 

But why did you modify the radiator bracket?  It didn't move, did it? 

Edited April 27, 2014 by DonaldSmith

[Don Coatney]

The bracket moved 2" forward to make room for the Desoto engine in my Plymouth. I also had to modify the front cross member to make room for the harmonic balancer.

 

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

So, it looks like I wouldn't have to move my radiator bracket.  Just fiddle with the rest of the stuff.  After what I've done so far, moving the radiator shouldn't be so formidable.  Then I can keep the belt-driven fan, with the pusher fan for parade duty.  Food for thought.  thanks for your input.  I'm going to give you a "Like This".

[DonaldSmith]

Looking into moving the radiator forward.

 

The radiator fitting for the upper hose may be a problem if the radiator moves forward two inches.  Here's the original condition:

 

 

With the radiator two inches forward, the fitting would be pointing right at the fan.  But the point in moving the radiator forward is to keep the fan, after adding the pulley for a second accessory.  

 

How difficult is it to modify the radiator fitting?  Can I "stretch" it two inches?  Or straighten it? 

 

[Don Coatney]

I used a straight thermostat housing. It appears your upper radiator hose flange has a more severe bend than the one I have. I was able to go behind the counter in my local auto parts store and pick out a hose that had the right bend for my application then cut the hose to length. 

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

Not to Worry!  I took some measurements, and the upper hose will clear the fan, ewven with the radiator moved forward.

 

Edited April 29, 2014 by DonaldSmith

[DonaldSmith]

News Flash!  Move the radiator only a half inch, instead of 2 inches.  (I only need a half-inch to clear the fan.) 

 

Advantages:  

o  Won't have to move the horns and fabricate new brackets for them. 

o  Can reuse the strut across the front instead of relocating it to the back and making a new strut for hanging the pusher fan..  (Make half-inch spacers and bolt the strut to the front of the channel frame.) 

o  Won't have to drill through the front of the channels for long bolts to reach the weldnuts at the back of the channels.  

o  Maybe can reuse the existing hoses. 

o  Won't worry about the fan being too far from the radiator to be effective. 

o  And most importantly, won't have to notch the top edges of the fenders. 

 

Challenges and solutions:

o  The radiator flanges are too wide to fit in the channels.  Cut an eighth-inch off each flange, with a cutoff grinder.  (Done.) 

o  Figure some way to support the radiator flanges.  Hang the flanges on the existing bolts, or longer bolts, run through the weldnuts.  Wedge, shim or set-screw the flanges against the flat spots on the large threaded bosses. 

 

 

See the two large bosses with the flat spots?  It's although Chrysler did that on purpose. 

 

 

So, I can hang the flanges on the bolts, and keep theflanges against the flat spots in whatever manner works. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by DonaldSmith

[DonaldSmith]

Radiator bracket ready.

 

 

On each side: 

The upper bolt gets drawn back for slipping the radiator flange in.  Then the bolt goes through an existing hole in the flange.  The two lower, shiny bolts go through two more existing holes in the flange.  The bolts will support the flange vertically.

The three allen screws (black, with shiny jamb nuts) will keep the flange tight against the three large bosses in the web of the bracket. 

 

Enough for today.  Tired of drilling and tapping holes in tight quarters.  Had to drill and tap through the front of the bracket for the allen screws on the back.  

 

Drop the radiator in, tomorrow.  

 

[DonaldSmith]

Radiator in place, about a half-inch forward. The fan clears. Hoses long enough. No leaks.  Car runs.  

 

The second accessory is working, making the wheel easier to turn.   The belt was squeaking.  Had to raise the second accessory, rather than pivot it, since the belt from the crank pulley is almost vertical.  How to raise the accessory in a controlled manner?

 

 

I added an eyebolt to pull the accessory up.  I squeezed the opening of the eye to fit the square part of the carriage bolt, to keep the bolt from turning.   With the nuts on the carriage bolts loosened, I tightened the nut on the eyebolt, drawing the accessory up until the belt was tightened enough (deflecting a bit under thumb pressure).  No more squeak. 

[builtfercomfort]

Looks good. Is that carriage bolt close to the other belt? If so ,it could hit the belt under high revs, so should be cut shorter like the other one. You can probably do it in-place with a saws-all.