Lloyd Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 I have a 218 from a 1950 Plymouth. I would like to replace the crank and rods with a 230 crank and rods. Then I need to mount this engine to my existing bell housing and flywheel from a 1939 Plymouth P8 201CI. Then install an R7 OD trans into the bell housing. In an earlier thread Don Choates mentioned where Mopar came out with a Fluid drive trans which required a 'beefier' mounting flange on the crankshaft. So I am guessing this means the crankshaft meant for the fluid drive would not work. Can anyone tell me how I can make certain I get the crankshaft I need? I looked at PowerWagons and although they are expensive at $550 I feel like they would send the one I need to mount my existing flywheel and bell housing from my 39. However if I should come across one else where, how do I know it will fit the existing flywheel in my 39? But I guess first of all, does anyone see any issues with using a 218 from a 1950 Plymouth, installing a 230 crank and rods, mating this to a 1939 201 bell housing and flywheel, then installing an R7 trans on the back? Flywheel? Clutch and Pressure plate? Throwout bearing? Pilot bushing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarer Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 A couple of random thoughts... First, if you use a 218 flywheel on a 230 crank the ring gear will be moved aft by 0.187". This is the difference between the flange positions (measured from the face of the block) on the oem applications; 1" for the 218 and 1.187" for the 230 and larger engines. The flywheel was changed to allow the bell be unchanged. If you must use the 218 flywheel then look at Don's pic of the machined relief in his bellhousing for the starter as it will need to follow the ring gear. As to flange thickness, I have measure many flanges and they all seem to vary a bit. The added material will always be on the back side so that the extension remains the same. The difference that you will likely find is that your 218 flywheel is probably a 4 bolt design, maybe a 6 bolt, and the 230 crank is an 8 bolt. The 4 bolts may do an ok job for your 'stockish' package since that is part of the oem design. You don't have a giant torque monster. Is a 6 bolt arrangement better? Well, consider that the 440 powered GTXs and Road Runners of the 60's only had 6 bolts..... Do you need 8? no. If you need to make new holes in the flywheel I would suggest a milling machine so as to get the hole size and placement exact. IMHO, any 230 crank will do what you need it to do, regardless of the oem application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 If you must use the 218 flywheel then look at Don's pic of the machined relief in his bellhousing for the starter as it will need to follow the ring gear. Thanks for the response. I would like to use my existing flywheel and bell housing including clutch and pressure plate. This is currently bolted to a 201CI in a 1939 Plymouth not a 218. Would that make any difference? So the main things I will be dealing with is a flywheel set back from original position .187" and different bolt patterns between the crank and flywheel. I can machine the starter relief like Don did and I would guess my current flywheel has a 4 bolt pattern. So a 4 bolt flywheel will fit onto an 8 bolt crank? Would I have the option of getting the correct flywheel for the crankshaft and still using existing pressure plate, throwout bearing and clutch linkage. One main thing I am trying to do here is keep the existing clutch linkage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarer Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 The 23" version of the 201-208-218 are the same engine. If you can get a 230 type wheel it may have the correct pattern. I don't think there was a lot of variation in the day, and, given the age, it could have more than one pattern already. If not, it is a fairly simple procedure to redrill a flywheel for a new pressure plate pattern when needed. With the 201 flywheel, and all else being essentially stock, you will need to verify that moving the PP closer to the T/O bearing does not create a problem...that small amount should be ok but take a good look at the parts as assembled and verify. Yes, your 4-bolt is of the same pattern as the 8-bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Does not sound to bad. Ill look for a 230 flywheel and if I find one get a machine shop to help me get it matched up to the PP. If I cant find one then I can use the original. Thanks for the heads up on the throw-out bearing. I will check that after I get it together. Appreciate your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Horne Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 I believe in Don C's engine, it is a Desoto engine, witch could be different than the Plymouth or Dodge engine, in regards to the flywheel/starter match up. I believe that is why he did machine work to match up his starter/flywheel..... I am running a 1938 bell housing on a 218 engine(37) with a 12volt starter from a 1956 230 engine. My 56 has the 6 bolt crank, and 201 bell housing with a 1953 starter, while preparing for another 5 speed Ranger trans..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 My 56 has the 6 bolt crank, and 201 bell housing with a 1953 starter, while preparing for another 5 speed Ranger trans..... Thanks Robert. Are you saying that Don had to machine his bellhousing because its a Desoto engine? So on yours did you just bolt up the starter to the bellhousing? So does the flywheel on your 56 have 6 bolt-holes? Dave Singer the same person Im getting the 218 from just handed me a flywheel that fits a 230 crank. Plus I found a 230 crank last night. If your flywheel has 6 bolt holes then that's what Im looking at doing - pretty much anyway. 6 bolt crank, 6 bolt flywheel, 201 bell housing, R7 OD. Except Im staying with the original 6v and hopefully original starter. By the way, the R7 has a solenoid - not 100% on how that works yet but will that be any problem staying with the 6 v system currently on the car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Yergin Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 (edited) For my '41 Plumouth I built a 230 using a 218 block a 230 eight hole crank, a six hole 230 flywheel, 201 bell housing and starter and R10 O/D. The only hitch was the crank was a fluid drive and the pilot bushing hole was not completely machined. I had to reduce the outside diameter of my pilot bushing. Jim Yergin Edited September 15, 2013 by Jim Yergin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 I was actually wondering about the 230 crank for the Fluid drive. The person I am getting the crankshaft from actually told me he had 5 230 cranks. Two of which were for the "Hydrive" trans. I told him I did not want that but one of the other 3 I would take. He also said the stroke on the Hydrive cranks was 4-1/8 inch but I looked that up and the 230 had 4-5/8 inch. So Im not sure what that was about but at the same time I did look up the casting numbers he gave me for the other 3 and they are 230 cranks. Jim did that six hole flywheel bolt onto the 8 hole crank or did you have to modify the flywheel? I am trying to imagine how 6 holes could match up to 8 evenly. But it sounds like from what you and Robert says, I may not have to machine the bell housing for the starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Yergin Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 No machining just didn't use two holes. The six on the flywheel lined up with six of the eight on the crankshaft. Jim Yergin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 What I suggest is you gather your parts and do a mock up on the bench with the parts you want to use. Take measurements and figgure what it will take to make your parts work. That is what I did. Not much point in asking all these questions when you do not have anything to work with yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Thanks Don, I will certainly put it together and look at it first. But there is always a point in asking questions. Mine is trying to get a 230 engine and OD trans in my 39 with as few modifications as possible. So I would like to ask around and try and get some ideas from people who have done this - before - I go out and buy this parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Now I understand. Good luck with your project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Horne Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 This is what the 56 six bolt looks like. I used it for my 5 speed Ranger trans mock up, to go into my 38 Coupe. The pilot hole is the same as the 37 engine I installed the 5 speed to.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 I suspect those "230" hydrive cranks are different because the hydrive came behind a 218. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Hey Robert, so you filled in the other 2 holes? I dont see them. The guy Im getting the crank from just told me that it had 8 holes. Right now I have a 4 hole FW, the one currently on there and another one coming with the 218 engine. That gives me 2 - 4 hole FW. Wayfarer at the top said the 4 hole would be fine and Im inclined to agree - since it was stock, but yet I am replacing the 201 with a 230. Which isnt stock. I looked at VintagePowerWagons and they have an 8 bolt flywheel for a 10 inch clutch 146 teeth at $60. Dont know how many teeth my current flywheel has - would you know if this will work with my starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Horne Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 I am just guessing, but I think I could use my 6 bolt flywheel on my 37's 4 hole crank, by just using 4 bolts. Starters:, I believe there was a change in starters from 57 and newer in the length where they engage, maybe a 1/8 inch or so, for Plymouth/Dodge. When I was looking for a new/rebuilt 56 starter, (my 56 came with a 53/54 starter), the infor I got was the 57 and up were different.... I do not remember about the Desota, and Chrylser.... I can change my starters from my 37, and 56 engines.....using my 38 bell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Well, after cruising the internet all day for crankshafts I found that Mopar used a standard 142 tooth flywheel with 4, 6 and 8 holes and the same two cranks in the 230CI engine from 1942-52. I realize this was for the Dodge cars, don't have any info on Plymouth. Crankshaft Casting numbers: 86829, 1557708 I know the 1557708 is 8 hole but I do not know how many holes the 86829 has. But I have sent out 2 emails and hopefully will find out later today. Reason Im mentioning this is because I have the opportunity to get either one. $150 each which is a lot better price then Power Wagons at $550. Although Power Wagons also has an 8 bolt 142 tooth flywheel for 10 inch clutch at $60 which I plan on getting. I don't know which crankshaft to get, I'm wondering why they used 2 cranks with different casting numbers in the same engine. If it would even matter. Since I know the 1557708 is an 8 bolt crank and Power Wagons has an 230 8 bolt flywheel for $60 Im leaning on that one. I'm basing this information on these links: http://musclecarclub.com/members/castingnumbers/Mopar1.shtml http://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/?page_id=75 I know Robert, Wayfarer and Jim have said I don't need 8 holes and I see you guys using a 6 hole but that's all I have been able to find for 230 cranks and/or flywheels. Does anyone have any insight on these 2 crankshafts and which may work best for my application? Or if it matters.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruffy49 Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Man, this is making my $125 230 sound better every day. Ran when pulled, gave away the car bell, 3 on the tree car trans, flywheel and clutch, throwout parts and just ket the core engine. Thanks for the heads up on the VPW flywheel, will save me a bunch of head scratching fitting the 218 stuff to the 230 engine, and keep the 218 floor starter in use, since I gave away the 12v 230 car starter...As Phil says on Duck Dynasty, I'm "Happy happy happy". Sounds like a fun challenge you've got going. I'll be watching this one, since people are always trying to give me L6 stuff once thy see the truck in the driveway... I'd love to have a few spare store them right, drop in and go engines in the barn or garage (probably barn, more room). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 (edited) Hey Scruffy. You paid $125 for a 230 w/tranny - running? From what Ive seen that's a great deal. Power Wagons has them at $750 - a salvage yard had them at $850-1200, I could only find 218/230 blocks although cleaned up and magna-fluxed they were starting at $275. I got a complete 218 from Mark Singer for free but had to pay $350 to get it shipped to my house (its the one in the classifieds). I paid it to get the complete engine. I'm at work right now, wont be home till middle of next month then I got 2 weeks before I have to come back so right now basically just trying to get things lined up for those 2 weeks and get the parts I will need at my house waiting. If the block and head checks out I will be punching it out about 20 then order complete internals, plus pressure plate and clutch from Power Wagon - about $2000 later I should have a new engine. Right now I would like to go ahead and get the crank and flywheel but a little confused on why Mopar used cranks with 2 different casting numbers in the same engine. Ill start a string with photos when I get going. Im sure I will run into a few things I could use some help on. May be able to help someone else down the line. Edited September 16, 2013 by Lloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 (edited) For my '41 Plumouth I built a 230 using a 218 block a 230 eight hole crank, a six hole 230 flywheel, 201 bell housing and starter and R10 O/D. The only hitch was the crank was a fluid drive and the pilot bushing hole was not completely machined. I had to reduce the outside diameter of my pilot bushing. Jim Yergin I am still trying to figure out which 230 crank to get. This guy wants $150 apiece. I included the table he sent me to choose from. The first numbers in bold are the Crankshaft casting numbers. The part that is confusing is the: "3/4 bolt hole for pulley. Transmission 19001 std/auto. Also this number for 1-1/8 bolt hole for pulley and transmission 19020 std/auto" What is the 3/4 bolt hole and 1-1/8 bolt hole about? Is that the pilot bushing relief? If so then I would assume that I would want the 3/4inch to accept a stock pilot bushing and the R7 trans. Would you guys mind looking at this table and letting me know your thoughts. 856080 217 Crankshaft 1941 - 1954 Chrysler 217 6 cyl 3.25 bore , 3.75 stroke. 1941 - 1954 217 C.I engine. Also cank nyumber 952068 is used. Transmission 19000 Std/Automaic 868929 230 Crankshaft 1941 - 1954 Chrysler 230 6 cyl 3.25 bore , 3.75 stroke. 1955 - 1960 230 3/4 bolt hole for pulley. Transmission 19001 std/auto. Also this number for 1-1/8 bolt hole for pulley and transmission 19020 std/auto 868929 230 Crankshaft 1941 - 1954 Chrysler 218 6 cyl 3.25 bore , 3.75 stroke 868929 230 Crankshaft 1941 - 1954 Chrysler 230 6 cyl 3.25 bore , 3.75 stroke Rods/Mains .010 1557708 230 this should be the same crank as 868929 for the 230 engine and not a Crankshaft 1954 - 1959 Dodge 217 engine except Hydrive transmission. 1557708 230 this should be the same crank as 868929 for the 230 engine 1557708 230 this should be the same crank as 868929 for the 230 engine Edited September 17, 2013 by Lloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Yergin Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Seems to me that it is referencing the size of the bolt holding the front crankshaft pulley to the crankshaft not the pilot bushing hole. Why not get clarification from the seller? Jim Yergin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted September 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Hey Jim, thanks for stepping in. I at first thought it probably wasd the front bolt since it said 'pulley'. But does the 230 use a 1-1/8 inch bolt up front? Just sounded pretty big. You said you put a 230 crank in yours, what size was that bolt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Yergin Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Lloyd, I believe it refers to the head bolt size not the diameter of the bolt. If I remember correctly the various bolts I had from my different motors varied in head size but 1-1/8" sounds right for at least some of them. I think all of them could be used with the same crankshaft. Jim Yergin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40desoto Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Sorry to have to open up this thread again... Question. I have a flywheel with an 8 hole patern that came out of a 250 Desoto/Chrystler Engine (25in block) and I also have a late 40's PLymouth car Flywheel with a 4 hole pattern that has the same number of teeth. The only difference I can see is that the Desoto flywheel weights twice as much as as the PLymouth one. I have a 218 Engine that has an 8 hole crank (Im assuming them put a 230 crank in it) would It harm my 218 engine at all if I installed the Desoto 8 hole flywheel that weights twice as much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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