What Wheels fit Late 40's Plymouth?

[brushwolf]

Hi, I am new here. I just bought a car online that is 180 miles away, which I believe from photos to be a 1948 Plymouth, but it could be a few years older than that. Car is fairly complete and said to have run 10 years ago, but if it doesn't will have to see whether I could swap in one of several 50's Dodge and DeSoto hemi's that I got along with my uncle's 57 Dodge D500 Lancer. My history is primarily with Fords, but been tinkering with a few Mopars lately too, though not knowing a whole lot about them.

All the tires are flat on the 48(?) Plymouth and there is one wheel missing entirely. Having hauled cars sitting as long as 30 years before, I am prepared to deal with seized brakes and that sort of thing encountered on cars sitting for a decade or more, but want to bring 4 wheels with tires to get car on and off rental trailer easier and w/o damaging trailer.

I know Mopar (as Ford) used 4.5 bolt pattern for years in the 50's and 60's, and I suspect that if this is indeed a 48 car, that it has 15's or (possibly 16's) on it. What I am wondering is if stock Ford 4.5 wheels in 14 and 15 inch sizes that I have available will fit on Plymouth just to haul it? I also have a couple wheels that came off Fords that were parted out, which I believe to be from 40's or 50's Mopars, since they have extra holes between wheel studs (or perhaps wheel bolts?) through which a pin on the drum extends to align wheel. Nash had those pins on drums in some years too...

I recall trying to put Ford wheels on Mopars and a Nash (also 4.5 pattern) a few times years ago and finding that although the bolt pattern matches, that pin either has to be broken off, or another hole drilled in wheel; or in cases of 14 inch Ford wheels they are not large enough to fit over brake drums/disks on Mopar anyway.

So, thought to ask you guys: Is there a wheel locating pin on drum? Is pattern of 48 and a few previous years all 4.5? Are bolts or nuts used to hold wheel on, and also whether driver side has left hand threads like 57 Dodge I have? Final question would be whether stock 14 inch Ford steel wheels clear drums on a 48 Plymouth? I know aftermarket wheels tend to have more clearance, but IDK if have enough of those to use for this. Thanks, Mike

[Young Ed]

So, thought to ask you guys: Is there a wheel locating pin on drum?

Yes

Is pattern of 48 and a few previous years all 4.5?

yes

Are bolts or nuts used to hold wheel on, and also whether driver side has left hand threads like 57 Dodge I have?

bolts and they are left handed thread on the left side.

[brushwolf]

I looked through pictures of 47 and 48 dashboards and steering wheels dashboards on site and found a couple of pics from almost identical angle for which I have picture of car dash and steering wheel of acquired car.

The dashes look pretty similar between 47 and 48, but horn ring is identical to some 47 Ply pics and differs somewhat from 48 Ply horn ring pics, so just want to confirm that 4.5 bolt circle wheel pattern and left hand lug bolt on drivers side wheels applies to 47 (and maybe 46) too? My understanding was that 47 may have been last year of 16 inch wheels and IDK if that also was reflected in different brakes drum size or wheel bolt pattern?

Saw some rear drum removal pics on site also. That looks like fun to do in the the cow pasture... Apparently wheel hub is part of drum and keyed on axle? Also reminded me that I hauled a 55 Plymouth a few years ago and dual cylinders and more substantial hardware in front wheels compared to Ford and Chev cars made it much harder to free seized front brakes than cars with a single wheel cylinder and brake shoes just having one pin (that can be cut from back, and shoe assembly just falls apart if drum pulled outward).

Apparently these rear drums on late 40's Mopar are really tough to remove even if adjusters and shoe retaining hardware is not seized up. Looks like if rear drums are seized, I might have to torch drums or backing plates instead of simply cutting shoe retaining pins as anticipated, cuz drums probably not going to come off peaceably.

If I have to make choice between destroying drum by torching around outer perimeter of it just inboard enough to free axle from brakes, or cutting up backing plate from rear, which parts are cheaper to replace? The backing plate and brake mechanism, or the brake drum? Thanks again, Mike

[Young Ed]

46-48 plymouths are all p15 models. If you saw a different horn ring it might have been a deluxe vs a special deluxe. Or the cut off in traffic remodeled version. Yes the early ones had 16in wheels but the brakes didnt change. If you have a good puller the drums should come off. Sometimes you'll bend the shoes but I've never had one stop me. The other option thats not too good on the wheel so use a crappy one-drag it behind a truck or tracker and hit the wheel with a sledge until it starts to roll. Crude but effective.

[TodFitch]

...If I have to make choice between destroying drum by torching around outer perimeter of it just inboard enough to free axle from brakes, or cutting up backing plate from rear, which parts are cheaper to replace? The backing plate and brake mechanism, or the brake drum? Thanks again, Mike

I'm guessing that drums would be a bit easier to find but if it were me I'd try my hardest not to have to replace either. Could you just take a long some wheel dollies and some wood for the dollies to roll on to get the vehicle on to the trailer? That would allow you to work at your leisure in your shop environment to free up any frozen brakes. Might save you some considerable money and frustration finding parts....

[Rusty O'Toole]

Ford wheels will fit, BUT the Chrysler products had a locating pin. You will need to drill a hole for the pin. You can do this in minutes with a cordless drill. From memory, you need a 5/16 hole or possibly 3/8.

This is because they use bolts not studs (left hand thread on the left side, as others have said)

The rear hubs WILL come off if you have a BIG puller. If you have a torch big enough to cut them off all the better. Use it to heat up the hub while the puller is pulling and they will definitely come off. Leave the nut on part way so the hub does not take off like a guided missile.

If the wheels are frozen it will still go on the trailer even if you have to drag it. Some planks and grease or old motor oil helps.

[brushwolf]

Sledge might possibly work since will have mostly old salvaged wheels and tires on it then anyway, but I usually end up doing this stuff alone, so can't drive and wield a sledge at the same time. Something to consider though..

I thought about having something along to roll one corner on although on rough ground that might be a tall order for dolly not to sink or get stuck in trailer ramps. Probably will take a small engine cart with that has casters and could hold one corner up and run on plywood; but beyond one corner think I would rather break parts and have a wheel on.

Figure to be in a time crunch since total drive is 365 miles round trip, 182 miles each way, plus the additional time to load car and try to get back the same day (probably night..) and unload car again.

I usually try not to indiscriminately break anything when it comes to old car parts either. But sometimes in interest of time it is cheaper to break something than to spend too much of the day saving it. Sometimes you regret it, sometimes you don't..

Deluxe vs. Special Deluxe: On Special Deluxe, is there a round Dash medallion with white background and the word "Special" written in red at an upswept angle and "Deluxe" written in blue horizontally located at center lower part of dash (middle of speaker cover maybe..)? Think that is what I see in pic, though kind of sketchy... Car does have a factory radio in it too, whether that means anything or not..

What are other differences between Deluxe and Special Deluxe editions? I see spotters guide says 46 has white reflectors in taillight bezels and this car has red, so that narrows it down to either a 47 or 48 I think...

Thanks, Mike

[brushwolf]

I have seen tow operators use dish soap thinned with water in original bottle to lube rollback bed to drag inoperable front wheel cars that are in park so front wheels locked. But will have rented trailer so don't really want to mess it up. Yes, will just drill whatever remaining Ford wheels I need to use after see how many wheels I have that already have the extra hole in them. I don't necessarily even want to pull the hubs, but if can't get brakes free don't think I want to drag entire car. Maybe they won't be seized, or maybe fronts will free up easy though not backs. But all the feedback is helpful in lining up several options in case one does not work. Too far to drive to run into insurmountable problem requiring a second trip, so have to get it done in one..

[Young Ed]

Deluxe vs. Special Deluxe: On Special Deluxe, is there a round Dash medallion with white background and the word "Special" written in red at an upswept angle and "Deluxe" written in blue horizontally located at center lower part of dash (middle of speaker cover maybe..)? Think that is what I see in pic, though kind of sketchy... Car does have a factory radio in it too, whether that means anything or not..

Yes that should indicate a special deluxe however I think with a radio you got upgraded to the special deluxe dash insert. It may however not have had that medalian. Also the deluxe didn't have the plastic insert over the radio area that says plymouth. Horn button instead of horn ring no stainless around the windshield are the other 2 big differences.

[Don Coatney]

If you post location of the car and your home base someone here may be available to assist. Also knowing your final plans (hemi install, front end clip, differential swap. etc) may assist in comments on what to do.

[Rusty O'Toole]

One good thing, the car does not have emergency brakes on the rear wheels (it is on the transmission).

Makes it more likely the rear wheels are not frozen.

[brushwolf]

One good thing' date=' the car does not have emergency brakes on the rear wheels (it is on the transmission).

Makes it more likely the rear wheels are not frozen.[/quote']

That is true, the additional parts for emergency brakes in most rear hubs do make it more likely things will seize... However, in the unlikely event the brake on the trans was stuck, it might be tough to deal with that onsite too... The car has a stick trans, cuz saw shifter and clutch pedal in picture. Wonder if that would happen to bolt to 55 Dodge hemi truck bellhousing...?

IDK what plans are for the car, still don't fully know how far gone it is. Have pics of one side, not the other. Trunk floor pics look ok, but seller said interior floors bad. So, will have to see in person to really know how bad.

If remaining unknowns point to car being fixable as do photos and known aspects, then probably will first see if original motor would still run, and if not then DeSoto hemi would be next prospect. I also have a couple 440's and a 400 in pole building not doing doing anything and lot cheaper than old hemi's are and better transmission choices (short of $900 adapters anyway). I suspect a 302 Mustang and T5 I already have too, would actually fit much better, but then the Mopar guys hate it for the Ford motor and Ford guys hate it for Mopar body. I also have a freshly rebuilt 67 SBC small journal 327 with a Ford Toploader behind it and so would have major parts of all 3 major American car companies...

[Rusty O'Toole]

I was thinking what if someone left the hand brake on 40 years ago. On the average car it would be seized tighter than the hubs of hell. Chrysler product hand brakes never seize. But then their cars were not average.

By the way if you are already thinking of an engine swap you might as well save yourself a trip. Leave it where it is and buy a car that has a V8 or at least offered one as an option, that means 1955 up for Plymouth, 1953 up for Dodge, 1951 up for DeSoto and Chrysler.

It is possible to fit a 440 in a pre 1955 Dodge or Plymouth. I have seen it done. But you have to gut the car like a trout and replace everything but the ash trays.