two steps backward...

[blueskies]

Spent the day swapping out my oil pump. It was a mother to do, had to drain the radiator, remove the lower hose, remove the fan, upper pulley, front motor mount, and exhaust pipes. Once all that was done, I dropped the engine down as far as it would go, and pushed it to the drivers side as much as possible, and the pump wiggles out from between the frame and block.

I measured the old pump with my dial indicator, and found that he inside of the tip of the shaft, where the distributor sits, was out of round .010". I figured this must be causing the wobble, and decided the new pump would be better. I could also see wear marks on both the distributor and the oil pump, which lead me to think I had found the problem at last.

I primed the new pump, wiggled it back into the block, and managed to get the slot for the distributor aligned at 7oclock. I put everything back together, it took me about 6 hours.

Since I didn't get the oil pump slot at 7oclock last time, I had to re-position the plug wires, which took a while to get right.

Once it was all set up, and ready to go, I fired it up. To my amazement... the noise is still there, and the distributor wobble is far worse than it ever was.

I'm at a complete loss now, as to what the problem is. Not sure how the new pump, which measured better than the old one could cause worse wobbling. The pump must be sitting crooked in the hole? I'm done for the day, ready for a couple cold ones. it's looking like Tulsa isn't going to happen for the team car.... dammit.

Pete

[Plymouthy Adams]

Pete..could you by chance go back to stock ignition distributor just for a test? Is pain but maybe next step in elimination..

[Normspeed]

My thought too, temporarily replace the distrib. Pete mentioned the noise seemed more solid near the oil pump so the distrib could be involved.

[Don Coatney]

Pete;

I still think you have a wrist pin making the knocking noise. I refuse to win the BIG RACE by default. Get-er-done:mad:

[Jerry Roberts]

A guy on another mopar forum had a " ticking noise , almost a knock " on his flat head and he finally found a new fuel pump that was quiet after two other noisy new pumps . I don't have any more information as far as the noise appearing at which speed . He mentioned the pump arm comming in contact with the cam lobe from a different direction .

[James_Douglas]

Pete,

Try something for me. Start the engine. Put on a big rubber glove. With the engine at idle, take off one plug. Listen to the sound and see if it goes away. If not do the next plug., then the next, and so on.

If it is a pin or a rod bearing it will stop or change sound a lot when you kill that cylinder.

If after that you still think it is in the pump-distributor area...

I still have the pump on the engine I took out last fall. Was running fine. I also have a fresh distributor with a new vacuum advance on it. If you like, I can box them up and send them to you to test as a set.

I will sleep on other thoughts. Best, James

PS. I am sitting on my hands until Monday and can get a new clutch disk.

[blueskies]

Pete;

I still think you have a wrist pin making the knocking noise. I refuse to win the BIG RACE by default. Get-er-done:mad:

Don- If it's a wrist pin, I'm down for the count. No time to pull the engine and gut it. Pretty tough too, when my kids are standing there begging me to play catch, wondering why I all I do is wrench on my car...

A guy on another mopar forum had a " ticking noise , almost a knock " on his flat head and he finally found a new fuel pump that was quiet after two other noisy new pumps . I don't have any more information as far as the noise appearing at which speed . He mentioned the pump arm comming in contact with the cam lobe from a different direction .

Jerry-

I read that post, it's a possibility for my noise too. I replaced a defective new fuel pump at about the same time as I did work on my oil pump and distributor last year. Coincidentally all this was done at about the same time as the noise appearing. Maybe I'll throw my old pump back on for grins.

Pete..could you by chance go back to stock ignition distributor just for a test? Is pain but maybe next step in elimination..

I stood there tonight with my old dizzy in my hand, contemplating the effort to install it. I'd have to rig the vacuum advance to work on a rubber line, wire it, and get a new set of plug wires as the cap is different. Still doesn't explain why in the hell the fawker is wobbling. It has to be the oil pump which is turning the other end off center. I put my old one in last fall when I had the wobble problem, and turned it over with the starter. It too wobbled. It seems that the oil pump is not seating square to the block, with the gasket, etc. Might try pulling the gasket for a trial and see if it makes a difference.

I'm pretty dishartened at this point, I hate deadlines for car projects. I suppose that's why it's taken me six years to get to this point. My arch race rival Don C may just have to make the trip to the Idaho rockies for a rematch next year.

Pete

[blueskies]

Pete,

Take off one plug. Listen to the sound and see if it goes away. If not do the next plug., then the next, and so on.

If it is a pin or a rod bearing it will stop or change sound a lot when you kill that cylinder.

I will sleep on other thoughts. Best, James

PS. I am sitting on my hands until Monday and can get a new clutch disk.

James-

I did the "pull the plug" routine three or four times, and I could not hear a discernable difference in the sound. Which makes me think it's not part of the piston/wrist pin/rod/bearing assembly. The noise with the stethoscope is definitely in the lower end, but can be heard all over the engine. It is very loud though, on the oil pump. Maybe it's really the fuel pump, which is right next door. The oil pump/wobble problem may just be a seperate issue alltogether.

There's no way to put a torque wrench on the oil pump bolts, so it may be that the pump isn't sitting square to the block. The paper gasket may be squished more on one side, cocking the pump enough to cause the wobble. I'm going to try and get a look down the dizzy hole in the morning, and see if it's obviously off axis.

Thanks for the offer to send the pump and dizzy. I may take you up on it... I want to tinker a bit more first.

I enjoyed our chat today, hope you get your clutch disk dialed in and get it back on the road. Your gonna love the od...

Pete

[Normspeed]

Pete, another thought, and I'm no engineer...If the shaft hole in the HEI distributor were drilled at an off angle, would that create a wobble in an otherwise arrow straight system? Where is the wobble visible, in the housing, the rotor, ? Not questioning product but grabbing at straws to find the solution. In a perfect world you could yank the pan and head, put some thread protector sleeves on the studs, push the pistons and rods up and pop them out. It's one of those "merely and simply" projects:p :p

Hey, for me, there will only be one BIG RACE, whenever it finally happens.

[James_Douglas]

Pete,

Get a cheep electric fuel pump and about 15 feet of fuel line. Drop one end into the gas tank through the filler. Pull the bolts and back out the fuel pump. Stuff some duct tape over the hole for the 10 minute test.

Bypass everything on the fuel system and run the engine with electric pump and see if the sound changes. Won't take long and will rule in/out the fuel pump.

James

[jd52cranbrook]

Hang in there Pete, your getting some good advice, and a lot of people pulling for you. Cant loose a race by default. Wont count.

[PatS....]

Seems like a faily loud ticking noise coming from this old power wagon as it's crossing the rickety bridge in this video. Is it the same ticking that yours has? Maybe it's perfectly normal. It's been a very long time since I've heard a flat six run in person but this old PW sounds normal to me. Kinda like a heat riser in a '70's 318.

Hope you don't miss the trip. I'd be there to help if I was in the same country

[Norm's Coupe]

Years ago I wanted to get the ticking out of a Mopar 6 cylinder I had then. Took it into a shop, the guy checked it out and said it was ok and normal for them to tick. Said if you get it so it didn't tick, you would burn up the valves. So, your tick may be normal. The wobbly Distributor would worry me a little though.

Don, are you driving the Plymouth to Tulsa?

[Don Coatney]

Pete,

Try something for me. Start the engine. Put on a big rubber glove. With the engine at idle, take off one plug. Listen to the sound and see if it goes away. If not do the next plug., then the next, and so on.

If it is a pin or a rod bearing it will stop or change sound a lot when you kill that cylinder.

If after that you still think it is in the pump-distributor area...

I still have the pump on the engine I took out last fall. Was running fine. I also have a fresh distributor with a new vacuum advance on it. If you like, I can box them up and send them to you to test as a set.

I will sleep on other thoughts. Best, James

PS. I am sitting on my hands until Monday and can get a new clutch disk.

James;

The long block distributor will not work in the short block engine Pete has in his car.

[Don Coatney]

Don' date=' are you driving the Plymouth to Tulsa?[/quote']

You betcha Norm;

I will drive the pilgrum to Tulsa. Why dont you drive your car there and party with us?

[Guest Sheldon Bates]

Pete: I bought a HEI dist. for Rusty off ebay when I fisrt got the car. It had a wobble in it after I installed it. I bought my carbs and headers from Stove bolt 6 and was telling Mr Landan about the wobble, he said that this was a problem they had in the early dist. and had me send it back to him to make modcation it it. When I got it back and intalled it work perfect. You might give Stove Bolt a call.

Sheldon

Flatheads For Ever

Rusry P15

[blueskies]

Where is the wobble visible, in the housing, the rotor, ?

Norm-

The wobble is the entire distributor. The whole thing is rotating as the shaft goes around, like the end at the oil pump is off center. This isn't possible though, because the shaft fits into the center of the pump tip. I can't figure it out.

I checked the pump again last night, and it looks like it sits flat against the block. I was thinking maybe it was cocked at an angle or something. I'm now wondering if it's possible that there is enough play side to side, or up and down, to get it off axis to the distributor. I might loosen it up again, and try to move it around in the hole.

I drove the car to work this morning, hoping something would bust so that I'd know what to fix...

I ordered a new HEI and new fuel pump too. I'm going to try the HEI with the un-"modified" shaft tip, to get back to a precision fit in the oil pump. If this works better, I will send my other HEI back to Tom for a new shaft retrofit, and either sell it or keep it in the trunk for a spare.

I'm grasping now...

Pete

[blueskies]

Pete;

I still think you have a wrist pin making the knocking noise. I refuse to win the BIG RACE by default. Get-er-done:mad:

Don-

I just re-read this list of engine noises, and I don't think it's a wrist pin.

This describes a wrist pin noise as a "rapid rattling sound of about the same pitch as a tappet".

My noise is more like what is described as a rod or main bearing knock. The sound is a low pitch metal on metal knocking sound, seems low in the block with a stethoscope, and is there predominantly under throttle between 1800 to 2200 rpms. It is loudest under load.

Here's my sound again: Click here

None of these noises described in this list are just like what I have... Which is leading me to think it is a periferal part, like maybe the fuel pump.

Pete

[blueskies]

Seems like a faily loud ticking noise coming from this old power wagon as it's crossing the rickety bridge in this video. Is it the same ticking that yours has? Maybe it's perfectly normal.

said it was ok and normal for them to tick. Said if you get it so it didn't tick' date=' you would burn up the valves. So, your tick may be normal. [/quote']

Sounds to me like the power wagon in the vid clip has a bad exhaust leak...

The sound I have clearly not the valves ticking... I have plenty of valve noise, but that's not the problem sound.

Pete

[jd52cranbrook]

I cant hear any knock, sometimes it good for your hearing to away a little. Or maybe the clip does not bring it out much.

[PatS....]

I was looking at my forelorn engine still on the engine stand naked on the bottom:eek: and I thought about the oil pick-up and how it is sort of hinged to move up and down a bit.

Could that be your noise? The oil pick-up rattling as the engine revs? Maybe the screen is a bit plugged and the oil pump is sucking it up and down looking for oil?

[Normspeed]

Looking at what Sheldon Bates mentioned in this thread, I'm inclined to think the problem could be a faulty HEI distrib. The oil pump to distributor relationship is so straightforward, if you've tried 2 oil pumps and still have the same distributor wobble the wobble has to be coming from the distrib. It would take quite a bit of force to make it wobble, that is a fairly tight fit where it goes in the block. Seems like eventually the distrib shaft would bend, break, or even wear out the shaft bushing or the distrib housing at best. I'll sure be interested to hear what it turns out to be. If not the distrib, I'd suspect the fuel pump. Easy enough to take the pump out of the equation temporarily.

[blueskies]

Just had another lengthy conversation with Tom Langdon about the wobble. We both agree that the oil pump must be crooked in the block. This could be due to a handfull of reasons... Perhaps the block is machined out of spec, the flat where the pump mounts may not be perpendicular to the axis of the distributor, the hole in the block may not be true to the flat, etc, etc.

One thing I did not check, on the new or old pump, was to see if the shaft spins concentric to the pump body. I did check to see the shafts spin true, and they do, but they may not be centered on the pump body, causing the mis-alignment.

According to Tom, this wobble problem isn't all that rare. GM sixes had this issue from the factory, and at some point in the production, they designed a u-joint in the distributor shaft to accomodate the mis-alignment problem with the blocks and pumps.

After hashing through all this, I decided not to order another HEI from Tom. The modifications I did to the shaft on the HEI that I have can only help the issue, acting as the "u-joint" and preventing the binding. And, even if everything was perfectly lined up, the mods wouldn't hurt anything.

I'm going to try and get some more measuring done on the oil pump that is not on the car. Maybe I can determine if it's the pump or the block. I have to think it's the pump, because changing the pump made a huge difference in the wobble.

And then there's that damn noise that apparently has nothing to do with the pump...

Pete

[blueskies]

Could that be your noise? The oil pick-up rattling as the engine revs? Maybe the screen is a bit plugged and the oil pump is sucking it up and down looking for oil?

I don't think so Pat. The noise isn't random, it's in time with the engine rpm and is a metal to metal clacking sound. My oil screen is clean too...

Pete

[Don Coatney]

Just had another lengthy conversation with Tom Langdon about the wobble. We both agree that the oil pump must be crooked in the block. This could be due to a handfull of reasons... Perhaps the block is machined out of spec, the flat where the pump mounts may not be perpendicular to the axis of the distributor, the hole in the block may not be true to the flat, etc, etc.

One thing I did not check, on the new or old pump, was to see if the shaft spins concentric to the pump body. I did check to see the shafts spin true, and they do, but they may not be centered on the pump body, causing the mis-alignment.

According to Tom, this wobble problem isn't all that rare. GM sixes had this issue from the factory, and at some point in the production, they designed a u-joint in the distributor shaft to accomodate the mis-alignment problem with the blocks and pumps.

After hashing through all this, I decided not to order another HEI from Tom. The modifications I did to the shaft on the HEI that I have can only help the issue, acting as the "u-joint" and preventing the binding. And, even if everything was perfectly lined up, the mods wouldn't hurt anything.

I'm going to try and get some more measuring done on the oil pump that is not on the car. Maybe I can determine if it's the pump or the block. I have to think it's the pump, because changing the pump made a huge difference in the wobble.

And then there's that damn noise that apparently has nothing to do with the pump...

Pete

Pete;

Have you tried sticking your stock distributor in the hole to see if it wobbles. Spinning the engine with the starter (spark plugs removed) should tell the tale.