woodgraining

[Tom Skinner]

Gents,

I have been practicing woodgraining with oil paints, brushes, rags, and combs, and have pretty much mastered the straight graining, however,

there is a burl grain on my dash and my Robe Rail Panel on the rear of the front seat that I just can't quiet get. If I rag it with small marbles in the rag

it comes close. If I cut a Cork to simulate a burl knot it doesn't quiet get it.

I wonder what the painters used in the Chrysler Shops back then to simulate the Burl effect. Any Ideas?

I don't really want to pay hundreds or thousands for the GIT Kit that is sold

on line, but I am considering buying the pattern plate and roller for the burl.

any ideas will be appreciated.

Tom

[Bingster]

There is a great site which I believe has a full explanantion of what the auto makers used to do. www.woodgraining.com.

If that's not it just google woodgraining. As they point out, they couldn't make it so only artists could go the graining. They had to have a surefire method that they could teach workers to do.

Wasn't there a recent posting here of the process? The Desoto Club website may have had some as well.

[Bingster]

http://www.desoto.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2808

Hit this site on the Desoto Club pages and there are photos of a member's grain work. You can see how he gets the irregularities.

[Tom Skinner]

Bingster,

Thanks!

Tom

[Tom Skinner]

Bingster,

That Carpathian Elm Pattern Tim Bowers is using on the Desoto Club

Site is what I am after. I wonder what color he is using as a Base Coat

(Opaque Base Background Color) before he starts in with the "Ink" Roller?

I believe its a Raw Umber kind of Brown color with a tad of Neopolitan Yellow

mixed in. or just a spaypainted Base Coat one Color something as simple a Elm

Brown if there is such a thing.

Tom

[Bingster]

Tom, I'll ask him and relay the info. Why don't you register to post on that site? It doesn't move that much. It isn't as hands-on as this site, but they do have some knowledgable fellas on there.

[Bingster]

I've left your message on his thread. He also lists his email address on that page I gave you, and I don't think he'd mind your contacting him. I think he's in business and so it's not a private thing.

[claybill]

ALL YOU AHVE TO DO IS LOOK AT A FACTORY DASH AND ANALYZE " HOW COULD THIS BE DONE". and you will see that the commercial talk of techniques does not apply.!! and the story.." we do it the factory way" also does not fit the dash when you TAKE THE DASH OUT and look at it!

doing woodgraining currently is nice and easy in most cases.

the rubber roller techniques make a nice modern product..beautiful!

however you have to re-ink and re-roll around most curves. on the original dash there was no visual re-inking or re-rolling..no separation etc. and it appears 'decaled' or screened right to the 'wrap-around' edges.....(like the hard tight curves around gauge insets etc..!)

i contend , with only visual proof, that it was screened on before stamping...

similar to the way the old screened toycars were done..remember in occupied japan!!!

bill

[Bingster]

Frankly, I don't think it matters how the auto makers did it. If you have a way to do it now and it is, indeed, beautiful, then who cares how it's done? We've obviously found a better way to do it, or at least we have adapted what we think they did and made it even better. The very fact that you are wiping out the old and doing it anew erases any exact reproduction of the original. Base and clear coat painting is different than the finishes on the old cars. Oil is different. Methods of construction are different. The main thing, as I see it, is to make an intelligent finished product that looks right when done. If you look at the photos of the woodgraining on that Desoto site, you'd be hard pressed to care how he achieved it.

[David Maxwell]

Not only that it works as evidenced by the many examples you can view on Grain-it-Technologies site, but by the works of those of us who now use that system. I don't understand your refusal to accept that which you can see and touch. I guarantee you, no one has TAKEN OUT AND LOOKED AT more P15 dashboards than I. Contrary to your assertions, the original dash grain reveals clearly that a roll on process was used. Of course you only know what to look for if you've successfully used the technique. The factory touch-ups are evident on every dash I've ever looked at including the garage full I currently have. Add to this historical documentation of the technique and it's kind of like people still trying to tell us that dinosaurs didn't exist and the holocaust never happened. Please, look at the evidence that surrounds you. Just because you personally can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

ALL YOU AHVE TO DO IS LOOK AT A FACTORY DASH AND ANALYZE " HOW COULD THIS BE DONE". and you will see that the commercial talk of techniques does not apply.!! and the story.." we do it the factory way" also does not fit the dash when you TAKE THE DASH OUT and look at it!

doing woodgraining currently is nice and easy in most cases.

the rubber roller techniques make a nice modern product..beautiful!

however you have to re-ink and re-roll around most curves. on the original dash there was no visual re-inking or re-rolling..no separation etc. and it appears 'decaled' or screened right to the 'wrap-around' edges.....(like the hard tight curves around gauge insets etc..!)

i contend , with only visual proof, that it was screened on before stamping...

similar to the way the old screened toycars were done..remember in occupied japan!!!

bill

[claybill]

#1 bingster i agree with you 100%

#2. no way is my complaint due to the inability to do it myself.

my concern is ONLY to ascertain historically, how it might have been done.

i do find difficulty listening to people saying 'done the way the factory did it'

as some profess that dinoc decals were used. and others even more ways..

i have only looked at 3 dash's...not hundreds...i will look again more closely every opportunity i get.

bingsters comment on curent beauty and qual;ity, and intentions etc etc etc..i agree .!

why take offense at my inquisitiveness??? i wonder.

bill

[Bingster]

Tom:

You're welcome to give him my email address, ( stellarrestorations@cox.net ) or shop phone number, too (620-489-6495).

My online activities are at home, and the answers to the questions are at the shop. The base is a DuPont basecoat color, and the ink is called "dark brown walnut" The base color code was provided to me by Grain-It Technologies (GIT), but anytime you are trying to reproduce a woodgrained panel, you can many times find the correct base color on the back of the part that is to be grained. The ink is purchased from GIT. I haven't tried to deviate from GIT's oil based ink, but I may play with some ideas in the future.

Sounds like your friend has good color theory; raw umber is too red to describe the base color; some dark yellow would probably help. I can get the DuPont paint code on Monday and come back to this post on Monday night, but if he wants to call during thd day, that's fine too.

_________________

Tim Bowers

Stellar Antique Auto Restorations

www.stellarrestorations.com

Tim Bowers wrote for you:

[Tom Skinner]

Bingster,

Please Sir, by all means let me know the Base Coat if you would.

Thank You so much for sharing your knowledge, I will probably order

some supplies from GIT this week. (Rollers, Base Coat, Ink and Plates)

My guess is by observing the original pattern (Carpathian Elm Burl)

on my original dash with a Mag Light and a Magnifying Glass in slow motion,

that the roller method used by GIT was the original method used in 1948.

That said, however, I am an oil artist of some 37 years and could probably

re-create that pattern with a brush over my Robe Rail Panel and Dashboard

at about a 20-40 hour sitting. I wonder if my time is worth all that given

I would like to also re-wire the Dash etc. also, in other words, do it the right way faster and restoration work alongside this work as well.

I know we can be hard headed at times in our methods but I think what is most important here is that we are all learning how to properly restore our automobile (Mopars). I observe detail quiet well and in my opinion (only

my opinion) the dienock method may have been used on the window garnishings, not the Dashboards or Robe Rail Panels, there again I feel

a straight grain is easy to create with a comb and brush.

Thanks again!

Tom

[Frank Elder]

What is a robe rail?

[David Maxwell]

...is the braided cord that is mounted on the back of the front seat. It allowed passengers to hang their robe, coat, sweater etc. safely where it would not be stepped on or sat on. Haven't heard the term Robe Rail before. I suspect it's something similar. Desotos and Chrysler had hard handles at each end of the robe cord. Perhaps that's what he's referring to.

What is a robe rail?

[Bingster]

Tom, I think I led you to believe that last post of mine was from me. I actually copied the message that Tim Bowers intended form your info. So go ahead and e-mail him your questions and he'll be glad to help you out.

[Tom Skinner]

Bingster,

Thanks I will contact Mr. Bowers.

The Rope, or Robe Rail I am refering to is indeed on the back of the front seat. I also have Pull Straps on both sides in the Rear Compartment/Seat.

It has a Panel behind it that the Chrome Handles mount to.

The Robe Rail Panel is Carpathian Elm Burl just like the Dash Board.

I only know this because my first 1948 Chrysler Royal had one.

I recently purchased (2007) another 1948 Chrysler Royal and then

the Rope/Robe Rail, Handles and Panel to mount onto the rear of the front seat.

The Panel is Painted and I must "Wood Grain It" to match the rest of the interior trim. The door Window Garnishings have Straight Graining on them,

however the bottoms of the front seat Garnishings have worn from years of sweaty arms on them. (The Car is from NC where I live now and has never left the State). I probably will Re-Do the whole Wood Graining deal so they all match and look well "alike".

Tom

[Bingster]

Tom, I have a '47 Desoto S-11 Custom, which uses many of the same parts as your Chryslers, I believe. Do you have any spare parts? I don't think our cars share any common exterior trim, but I need a right rear stainless fender trim piece.

[Tom Skinner]

Bingster,

I do have a couple of spare parts (mechanical) but no rear fender spears.

They are rare.

I had a little dent in each of mine and whittled a wooden dowel to fit it,

and bumped them out with heat and a brass dowel. Not perfect but you have to really look to see where the dents used to be.

Try this guy: http://www.mooresautosalvage.com/parts.asp

He has alot of 40's Mopar stuff.

Tom

[radioguy7]

Frankly, I don't think it matters how the auto makers did it. If you have a way to do it now and it is, indeed, beautiful, then who cares how it's done? We've obviously found a better way to do it, or at least we have adapted what we think they did and made it even better. The very fact that you are wiping out the old and doing it anew erases any exact reproduction of the original. Base and clear coat painting is different than the finishes on the old cars. Oil is different. Methods of construction are different. The main thing, as I see it, is to make an intelligent finished product that looks right when done. If you look at the photos of the woodgraining on that Desoto site, you'd be hard pressed to care how he achieved it.

Had some great weather this past weekend and I spent Sat and sunday detailing the chrome on the dash and doors. One thing I notice while cleaning the dash is that the wood grain seems to be totally un interupted at the corners of the dash where the dash shape starts. Is it possible that the flat peice of steel sheet was first ink rolled and then after the finish was dry they stamped the shape of the dash?? Just curious, the wood grain looks totally consistant to me and would support my theory.

[claybill]

hello radioguy...i have been talking about that very possibility for 2 years on the forum...you are the first one to also believe that it was done that way, besides me. i say, look closely at the hard areas to get with a roller...look closely when the gages are out...analyze the process.

anyway ....everyone seems to be sold on the roller method.bill

of course it would have been possible to imprint first the flat metal with holes cut out..then hit the stamper and bend it.

bill

[claybill]

i know i am crazy but i cannot drop this subject!!!!

re woodgraining;

my entire interest is only in finding the original way, as history, archives, for documention.

i am in no way contradicting/contrasting or talking about current methods,quality restorations, in ANY WAY.

bill

[David Maxwell]

...just wanted to let you know that I totally respect your skepticism regarding the roller method. It just seemed to me earlier that you were not accepting the possibility that it is the correct method. I hope that someone can find some literature directly from Chrysler on the subject so that we will know for sure. As you and others have said, the most important thing is to get good results regardless of the method.

All the best to all of you working on graining!!!

David

i know i am crazy but i cannot drop this subject!!!!

re woodgraining;

my entire interest is only in finding the original way, as history, archives, for documention.

i am in no way contradicting/contrasting or talking about current methods,quality restorations, in ANY WAY.

bill

[Niel Hoback]

OK, I am forced to stir the pot.

I removed a small filler panel from the floor pan of my p-15. and the bottom side was woodgrained just like the dash. It had a raised ridge along one edge and it was grained also, quite obviously stamped after the graining process. I cannot believe defective dashes would be stamped, grained, and then discarded. There is no flat place on the dash big enough to obtain the filler panel. It is much more likely that the dash was grained, stamped, and the punch-outs from the instrument and glove box holes were used to make filler panels.

[David Maxwell]

...because this is interesting. However, knowing the process, I have plenty of explanations I can come up with and grain that wraps around edges are very easy to accomplish with the roller process.

OK, I am forced to stir the pot.

I removed a small filler panel from the floor pan of my p-15. and the bottom side was woodgrained just like the dash. It had a raised ridge along one edge and it was grained also, quite obviously stamped after the graining process. I cannot believe defective dashes would be stamped, grained, and then discarded. There is no flat place on the dash big enough to obtain the filler panel. It is much more likely that the dash was grained, stamped, and the punch-outs from the instrument and glove box holes were used to make filler panels.