n1gzd_plymouth

I am having a similar pretty bad overheating problem with my straight 8 buick. I did a combustion gas leak test and found no evidence of combustion gases in the radiator. Unless I did the test incorrectly, I am assuming that I could not have a head gasket problem. I hope that this is the correct assessment because I am now going to punch out the freeze plugs and look for a blockage. So far it looks like my plymouth runs cool but I have not yet driven it on a hot day. Rebecca

I though of that too. However, I am not sure how this can be done because I think that this won't work because the drum will hit the brake linings. Rebecca

I will continue to try and get the right drum/hub (preferably a nice one like the one that did not fit - it is really nice - too bad). However, in the mean time I have given it to a machine shop. They are going to try and get the rivets out without damaging the hub. the will tell me what size rivets to get. I still will need to find a wheel centering pin. that does not look like an off the shelf part. However, I could remove it from a bad hub if i need to. I will let you know how I make out. Rebecca

two more pics:

Well, I am starting a new thread to narrow this discussion to one thing. As you know, I have been fretting about why my new drum/hubs don't fit. After further inspection today (took the day off to investigate) it has become obvious what the problem is. However, the exercise of trying to understand everything that there is to know about drum/hubs and axles was very worthwhile. I have been working on old cars long enough now to know that when you get a new part you should always be suspicious that it is the wrong part and also you should always be suspicious that the parts htat came with the car might be wrong. I did not follow my own advice and learned an expensive lesson. (so you can say, I told you so). MY NEW DRUM HUBS ARE THE PROBLEM. The drum part looks exactly like the old ones and at first glance the entire assembly looks the same. However, the depth of the hub is 1/4 inch longer. This is a LOT. Because of this, the hub could not be pressed all the way on to the axle or it pressed against the bearing dust cover (thus binding the bearing and the wheel could not turn). I drove this car once this way before I saw the light. As you can see from the picture below that my dust cover and the mating surface of the hub are both scored (not enough to be ruined but enough to make it obvious what the problem is. Today I compared the old drum/hub to the new drum/hub and the drums look the same but the original hub is 3 1/8 inches deep and the new one is 3 3/8 inches deep. The keyway on the new one is slightly tighter. Bioth of them have left hand threads on the left side. I was under the impression that plymouths started left threads in 1940 so this could not be a 1936 hub. Is this correct? Here are the casting numbers that are visible on the two hubs (new one is left side, not sure which one I grabbed for the old one): original hub: 32786-R new hub: 05936-R Does anyone have a book that lists which cars have a hub with this casting number on it? I need to figure out what is on my car and I need to figure out what I NOS part bought. If I received what I asked for then I really can't ask the person to take it back (it is a good drum that would be useful to someone assuming that they don't mind that it was scored a little on the backside of the hub (surface that touches nothing so this does not matter). I should also mention that I could not detect ANY axle shaft end play. However, this is not the cause of my problem but I need to find out where I can get shims so that I can add a little bit next time I have the backing plate off. As you recall, my orignal drum/hubs were separated by the previous owner. In addition to trying to find good drum/hubs, I am also going to try and put the original ones back to together (remove old ground off rivets and install new ones). Does any one know what rivets these are? Are they 1/4 inch round head solid rivets? How long should they be. Does anyone know of a known source. there is a machinists parts place near where I work that I am going to check out (called MSC). Here are a few pictures: Rebecca

Thanks for the info. My drum hub is not worn. It is NOS (and clearly looks like it). The old hub did not have this problem. However, the previous owner did mess with it (and even appears to have ground off not just the rivets but a tiny amount of the metal). I wonder if they were trying to fix a problem that should have been fixed by adjusting the shims. I am trying to understand why too few shims creates no end play and tight bearings. Is it because the shims stack outside of the diameter of the bearing and thus protect (preserve) a space where they will sit so that they can't be squeezed. If so, this has to be my problem. However, I don't understand why more shims does not cause the hub to hit the backing plate (because the backing plate would more further out towards the end of the axle shaft). I would think that too many shims could also cause the hub to hit the backing plate and bind up there. In other words, tight bearing due to too little shims could cause tightness but also too many shims could cause tightness due to backing plate pushed out towards the hub and the hub presses against it. Does this make sense? Rebecca

I have been staring at the drawing in the book and now I think that I must have too much shim (and that is why I can't torque it correctly without it being too tight). The back of the hub is jamed up against the backing plate because the shim is too thick. I will confirm this friday. If I need a thinner shim, where do I get one? I am assumign that there is one shim (it is not a stack that can have one leaf removed). I am guessing that I just have to measure how thick it is and get a thinner one. We shall see. I guess as an experiment, I can assemble it without the shim to prove that my problem is fixed (but of course then the end play would be too much - just an experiment to prove that it would no longer be too tight). Rebecca

Ok. this seems easy enough. Friday I will pull one of my hubs off again and check end play and proceed from there. I will report back what I find out. Thanks for all the help. Rebecca

thanks for the pic. did the axle shaft just pull out? Is that a spacer that I see on the backing plate that is sitting on the floor? If so, then it goes behind the outer bearing, pressed against the axle shaft housing? I guess I need to look at the picture again. I sure would love to see more pictures if anyone has them. Thanks, again. Also, next time I will make sure to have my camera with me too. Rebecca

Thanks. Yes. I understand that it is easy to check the end play just with the hub removed. I am thinking ahead, and assuming that I might need to change shims. I will check these things first and then think about the next step after that. Thanks. Rebecca

Ok. please help me to understand this (diagram not in front of me but I can kind of picture it). Is this true?: Lack of shims, will cause too much axle end play (you can pull the axle in and out too much)? If this is the case then torquing down the axle nut could cause the backing plate to get pushed towards the bearing and press against it. If the shims are in there they permit the backing plate to press against the shim but not the bearing. Is that correct? If this shim is too large then (opposite problem from what I probably have) then it won't be possible to push the hub on far enough but the bearing won't get too tight (so this can't be my problem). What I still lack, is a complete understanding of what comes apart to reach the shims, what tools are needed, and where you get these tools. Do I have to remove inner and outer bearings to get to it? In the book that I have there is just one small paragraph about this. Is this a full day job or a couple of hours job. I guess I will need to disconnect the brake line to get the backing plate off (so I will need to bleed the brakes). Is this correct? Does someone have pictures of this procedure? Thanks and sorry for so many questions. Rebecca

Ok. I will check this on Friday. I assume that these shims are the ones that I see in the explosion diagram in the book. they are inside of the inner bearing grease seal (you have to pull both sets of bearings out in order to get to them?). It seems like you need yet another type of special puller for this (not the hub puller that I already have). I would think that for the shims to be the cause of the problem that the endplay would have to be too tight (no movement detected). Would you agree with this? Rebecca

I was thinking that if it was over shimmed (or the unlikely scenario that the taper is too little for the hub) that the hub would bottom out before it got tight on the axle thus effectively pushing on the bearing instead of the axle. That is what seems to be happening. However, I don't understand why it was not happening with the old hub. I was tightening the axle nut with the wheel off so that I could easily test it to see if it turns. I could do that with the wheel on if I jack it up afterwards and try and turn it. Clearly I need to understand everything about shims and where they are. Is it possible to measure whether the shims are correct without disassembling? Rebecca

I thought that Plymouth started in 40. Anyway, I am pretty sure that 37 is not left handed and since someone already said that the taper is standard starting in 37 I am going to stop considering that the taper is incorrect. Back the backing plate shims. Now I need to understand this. In the exploded diagram I see shims behind the inner bearings (you have to pull everything apart to get to it). In the book they refer to these shims as the ones for adjusting axle end play (or adjusting the bearings). I don't see any shims right behind the backing plate. This could be the problem but it does not explain why I did not have this problem with the previous hub. another question, when I was pulling off the hub (whacking on it), and when I was tightening the axle nut, I had to do something to prevent the axle from turning. I put the car in first gear for this. Is this the right thing to do? I was worried that I was going to put too much stress on the tranny. Thanks again for sticking with me on this, Rebecca

One more thing. I have assumed that I don't have a 1936 axle because I was "told" by the guy who I bought the car from that I have a 1941 rear end and also the hubs that were on the axles had left hand threads on the left side (started in 1940 I think so this supports the presumption that I don't have a 1936 axle as I was told). Thanks, Rebecca

Ok. That is a relief (the new hub that I have should fit if everything else is correct). Next question: If I just press the hub on without the key how tightly should it fit on the shaft? I will get to the point. After I slide the hub on the shaft (with the key installed) am I supposed to tap the key in until it gets tight (as it is driven down towards the shallow part of the axle key way, it would get tighter). I did not do this (but I did tap it in a little - it is recessed about 1/4 inch in from the end - this is more than the original key which was tighter). Is it possible that my whole problem is simply that my key is not tapped in enough (of course it is very very very tiny bit too loose too but I don't think that is the problem). Shall I go ahead and tap it in as far as it will go before it sticks? Is this possibly the reason why I cannot torque the axle nut as far as it should go. In other words, is it possible that if the key is not wedged the way it should be that the hub will press further down the axle than it should be and tightening the nut will cause to much squeezing on bearings further down. The only other thing that I can think of is that it is shimmed incorrectly but if that is the case, how come the old hub was plenty tight (very hard to remove anyway). Thanks again for helping me understand this. I guess there is no better way to learn about your car than to start with a car that needs everything. Rebecca

I guess I need to figure out how to prove which axle shafts I have. Just because my car came with what appears to be post 1940 (because of the left threads on the left side) hubs and just because the person I got the car from thought it had a 41 rear end does not mean that this was so. I need to figure out how to be sure which axle shafts I have. Also, I have to find a way to figure out which years had the same axle shaft taper. I was under the impression that 1940-1942 had the same parts. How about 1936-1939? I guess I need to find a parts interchange manual. Also, perhaps I need to pull off a new hub again and one more time compare it to the fit of the old ones. It took a lot of force to get it off so I think that it fit the taper correctly. I supspect that there might be some numbers stamped in the casting on both the old one and the new one. I should get those numbers. I should have written down what was on the new ones before installing them.. argh. I really want to drive this car this summer. Rebecca

Thanks for this excellent info. This is an awesome site. I don't know why I failed to find this info in the books that I have. Thanks so much. Rebecca

An incorrect taper would explain my problems completely. Rebecca

I was told that I have a 41 rear end. I have not proven that but there were left threads on the left side (36 Plymouth did not have that). The new drum/hub set is supposed to be ok for this setup. visually it looks like my old parts (that had been separated). My plan was to punch out the old rivets, clean them up, and rivet them back together and use them as spares. Clearly something is not quite right. One thing that baffles me is, how come with all the books that I have, am I not able to find one place in one of these books that lists the proper torque for this axle nut. I find that pretty strange. I would agree that it sure makes sense that this should be torqued very tight. I really need to understand this and fix it. I want to drive the car. last weekend I was so sure that I had it almost right. now it seems that I am wrong. I may need to get some local assistance (find someone who is an expert to advise me) since this is a safety issue. It does not seem to be slipping the way it is but I don't think that it is right. Would you agree that no amount of torque should render the wheel unable to turn? (it should not be able to squish the bearing). Is that correct? If so, I don't understand why it does not turn if I make it really tight. Thanks, Rebecca

I found a 1950 nickel under the seat in my 1950 Buick. I also found a 1950's cigarette tax stamp in the same car. Under the seat of my 1958 Desoto I did find the original build sheet. I also found an 80's transformer toy and a batman toy. Rebecca

by the way, I recently got an electric grease gun. It is so much easier for me to use that (I have small hands and with traditional grease gun it always seemed like i needed three hands). How I can do it with two easily. I recommend it. Rebecca

I had that same problem once (oil out dipstick hole) with a 1970 Saab. Took 13 hours at 40 mph (fastest that we could go without loosing oil even faster) to drive home from vacation used about 8 quarts. We had to stuff a rag down the dipstick hole to help keep the oil in. The problem was a broken ring (blowby forcing oil out the wrong places). Rebecca

Thanks for the info. I could not find a mention of that anywhere in the manual and I could not find it in the lockheed brakes section of motors either. I will investigate this and fix it. Thanks for setting me straight. Rebecca

I have been driving it a little while working on it. rear drum problem fixed: Last weekend I finally solved my rear brake problem (as you recall, previous owner separated the drums from the hubs and this resulted in making it impossible to adjust the brakes and keep the drum centered). I succeeded in removing the old hubs and installing some NOS drum/hubs. My slow speed brake pulsing problem is now gone (brakes nicely now). This was my first experience using a hub puller. I bought one that looks like most of the others that i have seen pics of on this board except that mine was very cheap (from China I suspect). At first I had a little trouble whacking it off until an old timer came by and gave me some advice (don't be afraid to hit it harder). That did the trick. I did have one problem that I will need to fix correctly when I get a chance. When I went to install the new drum/hub using the old key the key did not fit in the hub key way (too tight). It was the same "size" as the old one but it was just slightly too snug. However the other side of the key fit just right in the key way. I ended up making new keys out of some key stock that I just happened to have lying around. I was able to install it easily with this new key. My new key is not tight enough though (teeny teeny bit of extra play). What I really need to do is make one that fits both the axle shaft and the hub keyway. I think that the ones that I have are ok for the summer (next winter I will do the bearings and can re-address this at the same time). It took me longer than it should have to figure out that the key was not going to fit because I did not know how easy it should be to install the hub. The consequence of this was that I tried several times to push and bang it on (and then had to keep using the puller again and again to get it off again). Eventually I saw the light and made a new almost good enough key. (learned a few things along the way). Another thing, I could not find a torque in the book for the axle castle nut. I experimentally determined that you just have to make it as tight as you can without causing the wheel not to turn (and then put it in the nearest cotter pin hole. one person told me that it should be 100-200 ft lbs. Clearly this is not correct. I am sure that I ended up with significantly less than that. It is not very hard to crank it on too tight (and then the wheel can't turn). I also determined that the brunt of the torque is taken up by the key not the snugness of the taper on the axle shaft. This is why I am sure that I need to make yet another set of keys that are perfect. By the way, I discovered that foam ear plugs make the perfect thing to block up threaded bolt holes (such as in drum) when during painting. I mean the kind that you squeeze before insertion and then they expand to fill the space. More later. Rebecca