thebeebe5

Got the master rebuilt and reinstalled and was able to roll the coupe over the 60k mark on the test lap. Just wanted to share. If the pics will load correctly.... Don't anyone go getting a stiff neck when they load sideways...

Excellent! You still have 4 wheel drums Robert?Quick search on RockAuto says 1 1/8" bore, but that's going to be pretty close. Is the front disc/rear drum MC useable? And a power boosted MC is fine w/o a booster?

I think I found the problem… The piston cup rubber is deteriorating rapidly. I have a new kit from Napa and the components look of better quality. The supplied piston is considerably too long, but all of the rubber parts are the same. Plus, the Napa piston cup actually has a piston washer embedded in the crown of the cup itself. I do have a question about this thick rubber washer that came in the kit. When I disassembled this master cylinder originally this rubber washer was underneath the valve. And other words, it was the first component installed onto which the valve was placed, then the spring, piston cup, and piston. I do not see this thick rubber washer in the schematic in my manual. Is that something that is necessary? Could it be that that just increases the spring return ability? Wondering if I can leave it out completely...? No everything is still nice and clean on the inside except for the deteriorated piston cup. New it had to be something severe as rapidly as the brakes quit working. When I pulled the master and put it on the bench to test it pushing the piston in just blew fluid out the holes in the bottom of the reservoir and did not advance anything through the brake line. No surprise there… Especially after opening it up

I was thinking the same thing, Frank. A lot less volume and they're just might not be enough brake pedal travel to actuate the brakes effectively.

No line breaches. No leaking WC IMO. I've lost WC before on 4w drums and its definitely not the same. And the fluid is to the top of the reservoir. Wondering about how this dual circuit MC would work as a replacement. http://m.summitracing.com/parts/aaz-10-1323m

thanks for weighing in Young Ed. About 250 miles in that two-month period of time. After I had assembled the breaks I drove that car about 10 miles, brought it back into the shop and pulled all of the drums. I checked wear pattern on all of the shoes and made corrective adjustments. The shoes now contact the drum this nicely, and the pedal has been high and quite firm since that secondary adjustment. This failure occurred yesterday evening. The brakes were as usual upon our arrival at our first cruise stop. When we left that stop I noticed the pedal was going about halfway down it's travel and the brakes felt mushy. To stoplights later I knew I had a problem, and the brakes were behaving as I described in my initial post. Of course I intend to pull each wheel and have a look, but the abrupt decline of breaking does not lead me to believe that all of the shoes suddenly went out of adjustment. I simply have not had enough time to go through those steps.

Wow! Thanks everyone for thinking of me. I appreciate your concern for my safety! I did use the nickel copper alloy lines suitable for brake line replacement. Forgive my mistake in my initial post.

quick background: 1937 P4 coupe, recent complete brake overhaul. All new (edit) nickel copper DOT approved brake lines and rubber hoses. All new wheel cylinders, all new shoes and I rebuilt (probably 25-ish year old foreign repop?) original style master, 1 1/4" bore size with a bernbaum kit specifically for the unit. Car had about 600 miles on it from prior brake redo circa 1980 (per prior owner). Master ID measured 1.2540". Piston measured 1.2505" I realize per shop manual that's half a mil over spec. IIRC it said .001" to .003"?? the problem: My complete brake system re-do worked well (2 whole months) until last night's cruise when I lost almost all brake pressure. NO leaks found, reservoir is still full, but pedal suddenly goes nearly to the floor and is quite soft. Ride the brake with gentle pressure and it will go all the way to the floor. Pumping doesn't help. Car will stop with this limited brake pedal pressure. Does not pull or shimmy. Seems as if all wheel cylinders are operational. I'm thinking its the MC. Have not pulled anything apart yet to investigate. Figure maybe I'll do the dual circuit master swap now. Looking at suitable candidates. I can find a load of 1" bore manual masters in the mopar lineup, but seem to keep finding the 101323M which bears the application description of drum/drum manual. Fits a load of cars/trucks in the late 60's early 70's. Would a swap from a single circuit 1 1/4 down to a 1" bore provide enough fluid volume to replace that of the larger single? I realize it will provide more braking power but require more travel. Open to suggestions for suitable tried and successful dual circuit manual Drum/Drum replacements. Thoughts? Need additional information? I have an entire engine machine shop available and can make anything required for installation.

Thanks fellows. Shouldn't be difficult. Very much looking forward to driving with all new brakes tomorrow.

Didn't have anything resembling a gasket in place upon removal. Ready to reinstall tomorrow. Is there supposed to be one or should I make one?

Okay, thanks fellows. Actually, my uncle had a pretty good suggestion today. I'm planning to go theough the motor this summer and don't have plans to use the car once the brakes are done.... The car will be at home when I pull the motor (right now its at the shop) and I'm thinking I could do the MC with the floor out while the motor/trans is out too.... One option.... Still, i might go ahead and get it out this weekend. I have the lift available which is a big help, and the hi/low beam switch needs replaced and I can do that at the same time. Maybe floor out is the way to go. Hope its not too involved.

It's come to that point in this brake project... I've replaced every part (except drums: they were good) in this system over the last twoo weeks. Found only a couple of surprises including a mouse condo built into the frame rail behind the front brake line block! Another surprise was some soldering on old brake lines.... Seems silly to me when lines are so cheap and easy to swap. Only thing left to come out is the MC. I've searched through threads here and it seems theres a pin either clipped or bolted to the master eyebolt rod, and a couple frame mount bolts. Can this be done with the floor in place on a '37 coupe? Would really like to not have to remove all that.... I have a lift and can get easy access from under or over....

Thank you Jan. Saw that illustration when I got home last night. That is the way I installed yesterday morning. :-) Need to leave the manual with the car, but I wanted to study some things during the week. I'll have it with me next time.

Does the larger bore go towards the back? I Don't recall it being addressed in the manual (and I'm at the shop and the manual is at home because I forgot it today...). My P-4 has a right and left cylinder for the front and a right and left for the back..... Larger shoe is on the back, and I'm assuming larger bore matches larger friction surface.... Is my logic correct?

Tod, Saw the "dust seal assy" and figured it was the felt-like seal that is riveted to the backing plate that goes around the outside lip of the hub.... I'll see that NAPA has for these seals you list and find out if they'll be correct.

I have,but honestly forgot it was this encompassing.... I'll look through the info. Thanks for the reminder! EDIT: I don't see any reference to the inner bearing seal. I'll see what NAPA has for information tomorrow.

While redoing the braking system I'd figured on replacing worn tie rod ends as well. Got two new ones from bernbaum and noticed they look different than what came off. Why is there the metal "cage" around the take offs? Was that the technology of the day for manufacturing rod ends? Also, found the tie rod to be bent and too the time to straighten it while off the car. It's way better now, and the assembly looks new. Very happy! The only slop left seems to be in the steering box. Definite progress.

Could someone provide me with a part number for the inner wheel bearing seal for a 1937 Plymouth coupe please? It's the one you drive in after the ineer bearing is packed and iin place. Just hoping to find seals locally rather than ordering online, and the original seals (or whatever very old seals I took off yesterday) had no part number at all. Thank you!

I do indeed have a '37.... Not sure how I messed that up in my profile. Fixed now! Bob Drown steered me to Vintage Power Wagons and I was able to get a part that fits perfectly.

thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into that copper/nickel line. Front hoses look pretty recent. Rear I replaced when I got the car last June. E-brake will get done when engine/trans come out after brakes are done. This car really hasn't been touched mantenance-wise in forever.... It's fallen to me to catch that all up over time, but I wanted brakes before engine overhaul.

Okay.... Sounds like I'm okay on the pedal. I'd intended to rebleed entire system anyway with all four cylinders comming off. That cylinder doesnt look like it will take anything other than the banjo fitting type connector.... That IS. A new line. Mocked it up yesterday. Not Sure how I could adapt a flare fitting to it. Its not NPT thread and has no flare seat inside. Just a 5/16" x 24 tpi bolt clamping the banjo with copper washers on either side. That's what was originally on right rear, and he cylinders sent by Bernbaum fit it exactly... Was that not a stock settup? I'd assumed it was given what was sent to me. I'll probably use plain old brake fluid. No silicone. Not sure of the need for it.

1. I was just flipping through the factory svc manual and noticed the "block the brake pedal to prevent its downward movement" which I did not do when tearing into these P4 rear brakes. I'm replacing all shoes, cylinders soft lines and some hard lines as it appears decades have passed since last service. What kind of trouble am I in since this pedal likely experienced "downward movement" in the two weeks this has been underway? 2. The rear brakes had mismatched cylinders when I disassembled them. I have new replacements in hand from Bernbaum, but need a source for an additional banjo fitting and bolt as it seems that was a stock piece. The mismatched cylinder ran the 1/4" line into an adapter and screwed directly into the cylinder with no banjo or bolt. Making progress, but it's slow with regular work schedule. Anxious to get this done and start fogging Phoenix for mosquitoes again!!!

Called Bernbaum and they will will swap them out. In the meantime AZ Brake and Clutch will reline what I took off and I'll probably use them and keep the Bernbaum's on the shelf. Cheaper to reline, and should have looked into it before I ordered. Extra shoes woun't be the worst thing I have on the shelf around here.

Perfect. Thanks. Have svc manual and I'll check it out.

To start with, how is it removed from within the axle? Since I have the rear brake assy completely off I'd at least like to check the rear outer bearings if it's not too much trouble. Looking at them I wasn't sure how to pull them from the recess of the housing though.... This is on my '37 P-4 btw.