The dreaded Knock Knock Knock

[martybose]

I am using the Edgy finned head.

Reinz gasket I (not sure of the spelling) with the copper on one side.

Head bolts were torqued at 55 lbs, starting at 50 and working my way up. Earl runs his Bonneville car at 65.

And still using the original head bolts, I was told because of their make up these do get stressed.

I know the car got hot several times over the past two years until I got everything figured out on recovery, etc. Al through it never got above 220, I still have to keep a eye on the gauges in hot weather, climbing, etc.

Once the head blew between cylinders 2 and 3, the between 5 and 6, then between 5 and 6 again and took piece to the near water jacket with it.

Is anybody doing anything with the stock head? I may look into that for the D24.

I'm surprised at the low torque setting. I always thought that the spec was something like 75 for head bolts and 55 for head studs, due to the fine pitch most studs used for the nut.

When I blew my head gasket was soon after I bought the car, and I found that the head apparently hadn't been retorqued after the gasket was changed, and most of the headbolts were hardly tight. I replaced the gasket with a FelPro (sounds like same construction as your Reinz) using Gasgecinch (sp?) on the copper side of the gasket, torqued it to 75 initially, then checked it a couple of times after driving for a while. Most of the bolts did tighten up a bit.

When I put on my Edmunds head I used the same gasket and process but with new head studs, torqued to 55 pounds, and have never had a gasket go. It normally runs about 200 degrees, and did see about 220 when I was experimenting with the timing curve of my HEI. When I pulled the head off for my latest upgrade project the gasket was in perfect shape.

Marty

[jd52cranbrook]

I think 70 or 75 is correct for the original head.

I initially torqued my first one at 70 until I heard aluminum alloy heads needed less, so I emailed Earl and asked him, I saved his replay.

Hi John, Ya 70 is excessive. 55 is sufficient for aluminum. I torque my Bonneville head to 65. you'll probably alright at 70. later, earl

[martybose]

I don't know why aluminum heads would need less headbolt torque, as you still need to have sufficient clamping force to seal the gasket against the block.

If anything, I would assume that the aluminum head would flex a bit more than the iron head, therefore wouldn't seal quite as well.

I think you're blowing gaskets because the head isn't torqued down enough!

Marty

[jd52cranbrook]

I blew the first one torqued at 70.

Over torque of aluminum heads, after they heat up, causes dimples at the bolt or stud holes. At least that's what I was told.

At any rate, I'm not going to run a alloy head on the 48.

[Normspeed]

Norm;

"If you had water or antifreeze in your oil your dipstick would look milky and you would know right away assuming you checked your oil on a regular basis."

Don, just to muddy the waters a little more (pun intended) If you are running full synthetic, Mobil 1 for instance, that might not be the case. I had a leaky water pump seal in a 78 Honda CX500, freshly rebuilt motor, and it was dumping coolant into the crankcase. No indications of the problem at all when looking at the dipstick. When I noticed the coolant level was dropping I drained the oil and got a large amount of nice green coolant before the oil came out, and they were perfectly separated. No milkiness or muddy look.

[Don Coatney]

Norm;

"If you had water or antifreeze in your oil your dipstick would look milky and you would know right away assuming you checked your oil on a regular basis."

Don, just to muddy the waters a little more (pun intended) If you are running full synthetic, Mobil 1 for instance, that might not be the case. I had a leaky water pump seal in a 78 Honda CX500, freshly rebuilt motor, and it was dumping coolant into the crankcase. No indications of the problem at all when looking at the dipstick. When I noticed the coolant level was dropping I drained the oil and got a large amount of nice green coolant before the oil came out, and they were perfectly separated. No milkiness or muddy look.

Good point Norm;

I did not consider synthetic oil.

[blueskies]

And still using the original head bolts, I was told because of their make up these do get stressed.

Man, I feel your pain...

I would also check the wrist pin bushings while you have the pistons out.

And, get some plastigauge to check the bearing clearances. The stuff is fool proof, and tells you very accurately what the clearances are.

Also, I think getting a set of ARP head studs is a good investment for your aluminum head. The old head bolts stretch and when re-used, don't have the same clamping ability as new bolts. I have my ARP studs torqued at about 65 lbs on my EDGY head...

Pete

[DutchEdwin]

I wonder, if the engine is at 220, how can the bearings be overheated?

Is the oil pump working well enough? Oil has two functions, lubrication and cooling!!!

I checked on several oil company's when I started to rebuilt my engine. They advised me to swap the oil pump to one with more volume to prevent overheating the plain bearings.

I did so because the old one was almost out of specification when I check it. The new one with more oil volume was same expense as the original one. I was lucky to find one, hothead had one in his programme for my V8 engine.

For your bearings, did you check on the oil company you buy the oil from?

I did with Shell, Mobil, and some other. They were all very willing to help. Within two phone calls I was talking to a specialist who new about old engines. Perhaps you should do the same and call them.

[jd52cranbrook]

Man, I feel your pain...

Pete

Hey Pete

The pain has moved from the bearings going bad to Kanter sending the wrong ones,,,, I paid for quicker shipment due to date I had marked on the calender I wanted to keep, now I am sitting and waiting again.

It did give me time have the builder come over and use his Micrometer. All seemed in order on the crank. But just to be safe, and to learn more, I have a Micrometer set coming in tomorrow so I can measure myself.

A friend and I cut open the oil filter while waiting also, can see the babbit in there, even if it is a by pass system. I think thats a pretty good idea to cut open filters when changing oil. I get to see what has been going through the engine.

Pete, I misquoted on that post about head bolts, but I think your right to go to studs.

DutchEdwin, not bad ideas either. The additional temp gauge was only installed recently though. After the first two gaskets went. The oil system actually looked like it was working well. Every bearing looked well lubed.

So now I sit and wait, and think. I am having the stock head shaved and cleaned. If this alloy head goes again, it's out of the car for good.

[TodFitch]

...But just to be safe, and to learn more, I have a Micrometer set coming in tomorrow so I can measure myself...

Pete's suggestion on using Plastigauge is a good one. Even if you have a micrometer set that would allow you to make the measurements, I'd still do it with Plastigauge too.

[jd52cranbrook]

Never done it, going to look into it.

[martybose]

(snip)

Also, I think getting a set of ARP head studs is a good investment for your aluminum head. The old head bolts stretch and when re-used, don't have the same clamping ability as new bolts. I have my ARP studs torqued at about 65 lbs on my EDGY head...

Pete

I agree about ARP head studs, but question your torque setting. My mechanic warned me that as long as I lubricated the nuts and washers I should use a setting of no more than 55-60 lbs. of torque.

As a side note, I like studs a lot; I'm just finishing replacing the always-leaking bolts on my waterpump with some stainless coarse thread/fine thread studs. Hopefully they will seal better, as I will definitely have to pull the radiator if I ever need to replace the waterpump.

Marty

[blueskies]

Never done it, going to look into it.

Plastigauge is very easy to use... The stuff is a fine rod of plastic, and to use it to check the clearance of a bearing, you simply lay a piece of it on the surface of the crank, put the bearing and cap back on, and then torque to spec. After it has been torqued, remove the cap and bearing again, and use the paper sleeve that the Plastigauge comes in to measure how much the plastic has flattened against the crank. Nothing to it...

Pete

[jd52cranbrook]

I was told by my engine builder on this engine, (I'm going to try to do all except the actual machining on the 48), that these head bolts do not stress or stretch because of the make up of the bolt material. I specifically asked him two years ago if I needed studs instead.

Is this untrue? and,, if possible, facts please.

Also found a source for the Plastigauge, will pick it up tomorrow.

I was surprised at the number of auto parts stores who had no idea what I was talking about.

[jd52cranbrook]

I looked into it Pete, and your right. Thank you for bringing it up. I read your site once again, and googled Plastigauge also,, pretty cool. Will get the stuff tomorrow. Now I hope I did get the right size bearings........

[steveplym]

Most auto parts stores should know what plastigauge is. I bought some at O'reilly's recently for about $3 I think. As Blueskies said easy to use, and very helpful.

Good luck finding and curing your problem. The engine I have currently rolled a rod bearing several years ago and I had to get a different crank for this motor as the damaged crank needed turned way too far over to fix it correctly. .060 was going to be what it needed on the rod journals. Found out quick from several flathead owners that was too much and it would chew them up and spit them out. Glad I decided to go with an original crank that had never been turned before. Luckily I had an extra engine.

[TodFitch]

As a side note, I like studs a lot; I'm just finishing replacing the always-leaking bolts on my waterpump with some stainless coarse thread/fine thread studs. Hopefully they will seal better, as I will definitely have to pull the radiator if I ever need to replace the waterpump.

Marty

Making it retro?

In 1933 the water pump is held on with studs and nuts. The head is too. And the valve covers.

[Normspeed]

JD, I reused the head bolts on my 218. They were not showing any signs of corrosion on the necks. So far, so good.

I've heard there is a particular Chevy V8 head bolt that is a perfect match for the Mopar flathead six.

[jd52cranbrook]

Thanks for the info Norm.

I am not opposed to using new, except I was told there was no need to replace these. I mean, everyone on here has many different ways of doing things, and that's fine. I would just like to know for sure using the old bolts are not good. I respect my engine builder's opinion, he did do well with my engine. It got hot because of other issues. But to change to studs "just because" does not make sense. And I guess I would like to know if these bolts really do stress and stretch over time.

Anyway, if I do change I would go with the studs with the fine threads.

[Normspeed]

I stayed with the stockers because I'm cheap and a shade tree boy. The cast iron head has been torqued twice, because the shop needed to replace one new valve guide after the rebuild. Both times I've torqued it to 70 in 5 lb increments and nothing twisted off.

[Don Coatney]

Here are a few more things to think about. My thought is weather it be an alloy or cast head the torque specifications should be the same. There have been so many differences mentioned here that the term “the same” seems to have been lost.

First off most engineering books I have read say that no lubricant should be used in torque applications. I normally follow that recommendation but in the case of the head bolts in my engine I used Teflon tape to seal the head bolts as several penetrate the water jacket and this Teflon acts as a lubricant. With a lubricant a 70 Foot/Pound setting on a torque wrench would actually be higher to some degree as the lubricant lowers the friction required to reach that torque setting.

Next is the bolt verses stud issue. The engine block is tapped for course threads. Studs have course threads on one end and fine threads on the other whereas the bolts are designed for course threads only. As you all know from the basics machined thread is simply an incline plane. It requires less force to clime a fine threaded incline plane than it does a course threaded incline plane. So a 70 Foot/Pound torque wrench setting on fine threaded studs would apply a whole lot more force than the same torque wrench setting on course threads. Add lubricant to the fine threads and everything is totally out of range.

In my opinion the best way to maintain consistency is to use studs with no lubricant on the fine threaded portion and that is exactly what I will do when I install the Spitfire head on my engine. Studs and nuts can both be purchased from Vintage Power Wagons.

[james curl]

I have pulled the heads from engines that used bolts and those that used studs. With the bolts once removed usually a blow to the side of the head with a dead blow hammer will free it up. With studs I have hade to use a stud puller or double nut the stud to remove it because of the rust on the studs holding the head down. These were engines that had not been apart in 20 or more years. I doubt if many of us here on the forum will be pulling MoPar flat head heads twenty years from now so no need to worry about using studs.

[Don Coatney]

James;

Thge studs I am using have an undercut shank to minimize the problem you mentioned. However check back in 20 years and I will let you know how head removal goes.

[blueskies]

And I guess I would like to know if these bolts really do stress and stretch over time.

It is my understanding (take that for what it is worth...), that the bolts do not stretch over time. They do, however, stretch when they are torqued to spec. It is this stretch or tension that provides the clamping force necessary to keep the head sealed.

The propblem with re-using a head bolt, is that it only has so much stretch, and once it has been used, it is done stretching. When you use it again, you run the risk of snapping it off, or blowing a gasket.

Lots of guys here have re-used head bolts though, and haven't had any issues. If it were me, I would get new bolts or studs. Cheap insurance.

Have a read through the ARP site to see why they manufacture the best bolts, studs, etc, and why it matters.

Pete

[jd52cranbrook]

Well, good ol Kanter did it again.

I got my bearings for the second time, right size, but,,,,,,,,,,,the mains only,,,,,,,,,, No Rod bearings.

Been on hold with them for 5 min now. And now the guy who is handling this is gone for the day.

Patience, Patience, Patience.

As far as studs versus bolts. I compared mine with a new bolt. No stretching that I can see. But it looks like I may have more time now to get the studs if I decide to go that way,,,,,,

I did pick up some Plastigauge though,,, so will check the mains at least.