Carb issues

[Silverdome]

Nice looking car and I'm glad you got it running better. I bought a vacuum advance a few years back from Roberts Motor Parts, I believe Andy Bernbaum carries them also or you might try Rock Auto.

It seems like I had the same issue you did when I reinstalled my distributor. I believe you can get it in the 7 o'clock position by readjusting the lock plate.

[Kool48]

On 4/17/2017 at 1:58 PM, Silverdome said:

Nice looking car and I'm glad you got it running better. I bought a vacuum advance a few years back from Roberts Motor Parts, I believe Andy Bernbaum carries them also or you might try Rock Auto.

It seems like I had the same issue you did when I reinstalled my distributor. I believe you can get it in the 7 o'clock position by readjusting the lock plate.

Well I checked with Andy last week.  He's has one , so I'll end up going that route.   But for some crazy reason now the car is acting up again.    Went through a new condenser.  I replaced it with one I had on bench.   Car is running.  But just can't get timing just right.   I fought with it again tonight.   Getting frustrated with it now.     The vacuum advance is bad so I removed it because it wants to hit the oil fill tube.   So I just wanted to see if I could get more timing out of it.   I'm totally out of adjustment with the slotted plate on bottom of distributor.  Both slots.    Seems to me they intended for those to be somewhat near the middle of each slot when setting timing at TDC.  ?     I'm pulling around 16 "soft vacuum.  Timing right shows me to be around 12 to 14 degrees after TDC at maximum vacuum at idle.          Something isn't right.   Either timing chain is very sloppy or balancer putter ring has slipped.   The oil pump has the gear on it.  So you can only put the distributor in right or 180 out.       I just can't get timing right.     I thought i had it a week ago.  But guess not grrrr.

[Dartgame]

When you replaced the condenser did you reset the point gap ? I found it necessary to reset the gap when replacing the condenser. If your timing is reading 12 degrees after TDC something is messed up. Normally most engines wont run worth a crap that retarded. If anything you want to be sitting around 5 degrees or so BTDC. If you cannot get enough twist out of the dizzzy, maybe someone replaced the pump and installed it with the gear in the wrong position. If you truly do have a vibration damper it is possible it has slipped as well. Before messing with that stuff wait for the new vac advance, install it, and then reset your point gap. Install the dizzy, try setting timing to something slightly before tdc like 5 to 7 degrees. Fill us in on the result.

[1952B3b23]

Here's another source for rebuilt vacuum advance that you might consider:

http://www.classiccadillacwaterpumpsforsale.com/19divaadrese.html

I had them do the one for my '53 218 ci last year and it works fine. They do require that you send in your old one as a core.

As far as your timing issue goes, i was having troubles with my car last week too. It would start but run rough as hell so i started by loosening the distributor and adjusting it while the engine was running until it sounded better. Well after i did that i shut off the car. Tried starting again and got nothing. So i popped the distributor cap off and realized that some how the lead that connects the points to the distributor had come off. I have no clue how this happened, i hadn't touched the distributor or tried starting the car since last fall. I was amazed that the car even started at all. So i pulled the distributor and fixed the issue as well as checking the point gap. Then i reset the timing to 2 degrees BTDC per the instructions in the manual. The car started right up but still sounded a little bit funny. Next i put on the timing light and readjusted. This made me realize how my initial 2 degrees BTDC setting was actually quite off. Once i dialed it in with the light it made a world of difference. You probably checked all this stuff already but sometimes its the most obvious things that can be causing the most havoc. Good luck and beautiful car!

-Chris

[Kool48]

On 4/25/2017 at 10:01 AM, 1952B3b23 said:

Here's another source for rebuilt vacuum advance that you might consider:

http://www.classiccadillacwaterpumpsforsale.com/19divaadrese.html

I had them do the one for my '53 218 ci last year and it works fine. They do require that you send in your old one as a core.

As far as your timing issue goes, i was having troubles with my car last week too. It would start but run rough as hell so i started by loosening the distributor and adjusting it while the engine was running until it sounded better. Well after i did that i shut off the car. Tried starting again and got nothing. So i popped the distributor cap off and realized that some how the lead that connects the points to the distributor had come off. I have no clue how this happened, i hadn't touched the distributor or tried starting the car since last fall. I was amazed that the car even started at all. So i pulled the distributor and fixed the issue as well as checking the point gap. Then i reset the timing to 2 degrees BTDC per the instructions in the manual. The car started right up but still sounded a little bit funny. Next i put on the timing light and readjusted. This made me realize how my initial 2 degrees BTDC setting was actually quite off. Once i dialed it in with the light it made a world of difference. You probably checked all this stuff already but sometimes its the most obvious things that can be causing the most havoc. Good luck and beautiful car!

-Chris

Thanks Chris for your insight.    I'm still battling my timing / vacuum/ or carb issues.   Ya I know it's a lot.   I'm trying to start from scratch now with the timing issue.    I will double triple check gap setting and anything else I do by the book.   It's been very frustrating this past 2 weeks.  

[Kool48]

Well I've had some issues lately with my 218 in my 48 Plymouth.   I rebuilt carb a month ago or so.   But something just isn't right with my timing.   I have a timing light.  That got me no where.  So I set timing with vacuum gauge about a week or so ago.  Set fuel idle mixture with vacuum gauge as well.   Had about 16/17 inches of vacuum.   But with a timing light.  I was running about 10 degrees or more after TDC   TDC was at the 11 o'clock position looking at engine from front.    But like I said I timed it with vacuum gauge.   Car was running great so I thought.     Not even 4 days later my new condenser went bad so I think.   Had to have car towed home.   I put another condenser in it and it started right up.   But something went wrong again.  Engine wanted to surge in 3rd gear.   So back to the timing I went.   Had to turn it counters clockwise as much as possible even getting the max outta the adjustment plate on bottom of distributor.    So I've left it alone.  Last night I pulled all the plugs. And opened carb up , checked compression.  All is fairly good 1 to 6.  95 , 110, 115,115 118,120.    So then I bring timing mark to TDC at pointer.  The rotor button sets at 7 o'clock.  So I did the setting by the method mentioned in tech tip.  Using the neon outlet tester.   So yes I can get the tester to flash while adjusting the distributor at TDC.     So my question.    I should be able to lock distributor down at this,point and it should be set and done correct ?     Because I haven't started engine since setting timing as,explained.   But I can almost guarantee it won't run right and vacuum will be way low.        If I'm correct what else could be making the vacuum so low when timing is set to where it is now ?    Could it be the carb. Vacuum leak ?       

 

[55 Fargo]

1 hour ago, Kool48 said:

Well I've had some issues lately with my 218 in my 48 Plymouth.   I rebuilt carb a month ago or so.   But something just isn't right with my timing.   I have a timing light.  That got me no where.  So I set timing with vacuum gauge about a week or so ago.  Set fuel idle mixture with vacuum gauge as well.   Had about 16/17 inches of vacuum.   But with a timing light.  I was running about 10 degrees or more after TDC   TDC was at the 11 o'clock position looking at engine from front.    But like I said I timed it with vacuum gauge.   Car was running great so I thought.     Not even 4 days later my new condenser went bad so I think.   Had to have car towed home.   I put another condenser in it and it started right up.   But something went wrong again.  Engine wanted to surge in 3rd gear.   So back to the timing I went.   Had to turn it counters clockwise as much as possible even getting the max outta the adjustment plate on bottom of distributor.    So I've left it alone.  Last night I pulled all the plugs. And opened carb up , checked compression.  All is fairly good 1 to 6.  95 , 110, 115,115 118,120.    So then I bring timing mark to TDC at pointer.  The rotor button sets at 7 o'clock.  So I did the setting by the method mentioned in tech tip.  Using the neon outlet tester.   So yes I can get the tester to flash while adjusting the distributor at TDC.     So my question.    I should be able to lock distributor down at this,point and it should be set and done correct ?     Because I haven't started engine since setting timing as,explained.   But I can almost guarantee it won't run right and vacuum will be way low.        If I'm correct what else could be making the vacuum so low when timing is set to where it is now ?    Could it be the carb. Vacuum leak ?       

 

 

Compression seams good, Cyl #1 is a tad low, but still not bad, all the rest are great, s possibly valves leaking slightly in cyl 1.

Is cyl # 1 at TDC pointing to the 7 oclock position on the rotor?

Are you out on the rotor by 1?, if you are, might explain why you had to advance the distributor to the max.

Sometimes ignition issues mean there is a fuel problem, are you getting good fuel delivery?

Engine idles well? how is the power from a dead stop, are you having issues when the engine gets warmed up?

[Kool48]

8 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

 

Compression seams good, Cyl #1 is a tad low, but still not bad, all the rest are great, s possibly valves leaking slightly in cyl 1.

Is cyl # 1 at TDC pointing to the 7 oclock position on the rotor?

Are you out on the rotor by 1?, if you are, might explain why you had to advance the distributor to the max.

Sometimes ignition issues mean there is a fuel problem, are you getting good fuel delivery?

Engine idles well? how is the power from a dead stop, are you having issues when the engine gets warmed up?

Yes @ TDCon pointer. Rotor is pointing at 7 o'clock.                                                                                                                              Am I out by 1 ?    1 what.  Gear tooth on  oil pump ?      If that's what your asking.   It doesn't appear as so with the relationship between rotor at 7 o'clock  and TDC setting dead on pointer .    Carb is getting good  fuel to it.  Now what is going on in the carb circuit could be a different story.    Engines idles very smooth and you can Blip the  throttle with no hesitation what so ever when parked  .  Seems perfect setting there at idle and blipping the   throttle .  It's when you drive it and get it under a load.         Keep in mind as I mentioned in this post.   I haven't touched the car since I timed it using the neon tester method .   Been waiting for responses on if what I did sounds correct and if I should leave timing alone and start looking into a different area for my issues.      I'm going to get back on this Saturday morning.     Meanwhile I've been trying to find another carb , just in case I need to replace mine .  I rebuilt mine and thought I did everything correct.   But I'm going to go back through it again.       

Edited April 27, 2017 by Kool48

[1952B3b23]

9 hours ago, Kool48 said:

Well I've had some issues lately with my 218 in my 48 Plymouth.   I rebuilt carb a month ago or so.   But something just isn't right with my timing.   I have a timing light.  That got me no where.  So I set timing with vacuum gauge about a week or so ago.  Set fuel idle mixture with vacuum gauge as well.   Had about 16/17 inches of vacuum.   But with a timing light.  I was running about 10 degrees or more after TDC   TDC was at the 11 o'clock position looking at engine from front.    But like I said I timed it with vacuum gauge.   Car was running great so I thought.     Not even 4 days later my new condenser went bad so I think.   Had to have car towed home.   I put another condenser in it and it started right up.   But something went wrong again.  Engine wanted to surge in 3rd gear.   So back to the timing I went.   Had to turn it counters clockwise as much as possible even getting the max outta the adjustment plate on bottom of distributor.    So I've left it alone.  Last night I pulled all the plugs. And opened carb up , checked compression.  All is fairly good 1 to 6.  95 , 110, 115,115 118,120.    So then I bring timing mark to TDC at pointer.  The rotor button sets at 7 o'clock.  So I did the setting by the method mentioned in tech tip.  Using the neon outlet tester.   So yes I can get the tester to flash while adjusting the distributor at TDC.     So my question.    I should be able to lock distributor down at this,point and it should be set and done correct ?     Because I haven't started engine since setting timing as,explained.   But I can almost guarantee it won't run right and vacuum will be way low.        If I'm correct what else could be making the vacuum so low when timing is set to where it is now ?    Could it be the carb. Vacuum leak ?       

 

Have you checked for vacuum leaks at the intake manifold with the engine at idle? You can take some starting fluid and squirt it on the gaskets where the intake bolts to the block, and at the base of the carbs. If the engine revs up then you've found your leak. Just use very small squirts, obviously starting fluid is very flammable. I would plug the vacuum port that goes to the vacuum advance as well. Just in case thats leaking. I've also heard of guys doing this same test with an unlit propane torch. I tried that before but i found that the fan blows the gas away so it didn't work well for me.

Have you changed the exhaust/ intake manifold gaskets at all recently? I just put dual carbs and dual exhaust on my car and i found that it required a lot of heat cycles and re-torquing of the nuts to totally seal up the exhaust and intake. The gaskets will creep and settle in with the heat cycles.

-Chris

 

[Kool48]

Thanks Chris. I did use some carb cleaner to try and narrow down vacuum leaks before.   But I'm gonna try again.   I got my timing lined out tonight.   So now I'm chasing vacuum leak.  I did a rebuild on carb.  So I'm gonna start there.  As I didn't have this issue before.   

[Kool48]

I finally got the distributor and timing where I think it should be.    I reset point gap .020.  Reset plug gap .035 ( resistor) type plugs I have.   Damper dead nuts TDC. Rotor pointing at 7 o'clock positioned. Dialed in distributor with the neon tester.     Car fires up.   So I put my timing light on it just for the know.   It's running and timing is right on TDC and maybe 1 or 2 degrees BTDC.  But vacuum is only around 11 inches which isn't good.   So now I'm gonna remove the carb and double check my rebuild and make sure I have the correct gaskets.    I'm thinking now more along the lines of vacuum leak. ??

Edited April 28, 2017 by Kool48
Spelling

[Kool48]

On 4/12/2017 at 7:36 PM, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

I would pull the carb again and make 100%sure its clean in every passage, did you soak it and pull it completely apart?It sure sounds like the main jet, is obstructed, possibly.

Check the firing order, your plug wires too.

If you have to choke it to get it to run or smooth out, you are fuel starving....

Going to do this over the weekend.  

[Kool48]

On 4/25/2017 at 9:40 AM, Dartgame said:

When you replaced the condenser did you reset the point gap ? I found it necessary to reset the gap when replacing the condenser. If your timing is reading 12 degrees after TDC something is messed up. Normally most engines wont run worth a crap that retarded. If anything you want to be sitting around 5 degrees or so BTDC. If you cannot get enough twist out of the dizzzy, maybe someone replaced the pump and installed it with the gear in the wrong position. If you truly do have a vibration damper it is possible it has slipped as well. Before messing with that stuff wait for the new vac advance, install it, and then reset your point gap. Install the dizzy, try setting timing to something slightly before tdc like 5 to 7 degrees. Fill us in on the result.

I wrote that wrong. At that time it was actually 12 degrees BTDC.   I'm sorry about that.   I have since gotten the timing corrected.  Now I'm going after vacuum leak / carb 

[1952B3b23]

13 hours ago, Kool48 said:

I finally got the distributor and timing where I think it should be.    I reset point gap .020.  Reset plug gap .035 ( resistor) type plugs I have.   Damper dead nuts TDC. Rotor pointing at 7 o'clock positioned. Dialed in distributor with the neon tester.     Car fires up.   So I put my timing light on it just for the know.   It's running and timing is right on TDC and maybe 1 or 2 degrees BTDC.  But vacuum is only around 11 inches which isn't good.   So now I'm gonna remove the carb and double check my rebuild and make sure I have the correct gaskets.    I'm thinking now more along the lines of vacuum leak. ??

Yea i'd think you have a vacuum leak somewhere. I did a vacuum test on my car the other day and it's pulling about 19 inches at idle. Good thoughts on checking the carb. You do have the vacuum advance port on the carb blocked off for the test right?

-Chris

[Kool48]

On 4/28/2017 at 11:41 AM, 1952B3b23 said:

Yea i'd think you have a vacuum leak somewhere. I did a vacuum test on my car the other day and it's pulling about 19 inches at idle. Good thoughts on checking the carb. You do have the vacuum advance port on the carb blocked off for the test right?

-Chris

Yes.  As of right now the vacuum advance diaphragm is shot.   So yes the carb vacuum port is plugged as the manifold vacuum port is plugged also.    I have carb completely taken apart again.   I havent found any blocked passeges and everything seems to check out ok to me.      Ive flat filed all mating surfaces along with the intake manifold carb mount surface.    It did have a low spot.     When i removed carb for thr 1st time there was ( 2) gaskets between carb and manifold.    So thats how i put it back together.    Not sure if there should be 2 gaskets there ?         And yes the gaskets have the cut outs for the hole in the bottom of carb base.      Thanks. 

[55 Fargo]

1 hour ago, Kool48 said:

Yes.  As of right now the vacuum advance diaphragm is shot.   So yes the carb vacuum port is plugged as the manifold vacuum port is plugged also.    I have carb completely taken apart again.   I havent found any blocked passeges and everything seems to check out ok to me.      Ive flat filed all mating surfaces along with the intake manifold carb mount surface.    It did have a low spot.     When i removed carb for thr 1st time there was ( 2) gaskets between carb and manifold.    So thats how i put it back together.    Not sure if there should be 2 gaskets there ?         And yes the gaskets have the cut outs for the hole in the bottom of carb base.      Thanks. 

Okay sounds like your on it, hiow about the intake manifold and gasket?

[Kool48]

Well.   I removed and reassembled the carburetor again this weekend.  It was a fresh rebuild.   But just double checked my work.  Cleaned and blew out all passages once again.  Everything is right on per instructions and manual.  The only thing I could see that possibly coulda been an issue was with the (2 ) carb to base spacer gaskets.    There identical.  But they were bought off of eBay.  They wasn't centered very well at all.  See pics for impressions.    So I reused my originals that were on the carb before I originally took it apart.   They were in good condition.  I shot em with silicone spray and reassembled carb. Double checking every passage every gasket to mating surfaces to make sure nothing was blocked.      So long story short.  All back together.  Car fires right up.   Timing at 2 degrees BTDC, all vacuum ports plugged carb and manifold.   Set fuel mixture screw with vacuum gauge.      The best I can get is 13 inches of vacuum. That's even putting the timing up to 4 degrees BTDC.     Engine runs and responds great.  In garage in park of course.    Can't test drive it do to the weather here right now.     I can get maybe up to 14 inches of vacuum at 10 degrees BTDC.  But I know I shouldn't have to have that much timing in it to get at least 16 inches of vacuum.    There is no gas leaks.   I shot carb cleaner around the intake to block flanges. No changes.  Shot carb cleaner around base of carb around both ends of the throttle shaft.  Around the spacer plate etc....... No changes at all in vacuum.  Even shot carb cleaner around my fitting in the intake for vacuum wiper.  Carb vacuum port is plugged right now until I get new vacuum advance diaphragm.    When i originally removed carb.  There was 2 gaskets between carb base and manifold.   They have the cut outs for the hole in carb base just as my new ones do.    I did put 2 new ones back on it.   Don't know if it requires 2.  But I couldn't find any info referring to those gaskets.  My opinion should just be one.   But even with the 2 gaskets there wasn't a change in vacuum when shooting carb cleaner around.   So I don't know what it is going to do under load.  But there's still an issue somewhere.  I did reduce that high pitched vacuum sound coming directly from carb bore though.  It sounds much better.    You can blip the throttle and it responds very well.   Not smelling rich or smoking.    Just the vacuum is low.      Valves perhaps?

[55 Fargo]

[55 Fargo]

Vacuum, low steady reading you are getting, indicate, timing is off, or bad rings (low compression), do a compression test.

If and when you do the test, make sure the tester screw in fitting is not longer than your sparkplug or the valves will hit it.....

[Kool48]

9 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Thanks for sharing that pic.  My engine is more like the 4th pic down on the left.       I know that when I accelerate the throttle of course the vacuum drops.   But as rpms start coming back down the vacuum will get up to 20 inches but settle back down to 13 inches at idle.   

Edited May 1, 2017 by Kool48
Spelling

[Kool48]

9 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Vacuum, low steady reading you are getting, indicate, timing is off, or bad rings (low compression), do a compression test.

If and when you do the test, make sure the tester screw in fitting is not longer than your sparkplug or the valves will hit it.....

Already did compression check.    Go back a few post and you'll see the results.   There not great but not really bad.      Also corrected timing as well.  I posted that a few post back.    

[Kool48]

Ive got another carb on its way.   I'll have to rebuild it. It's all original and complete.    Carter ball and ball D6H2.  It is just like the one I have now.   

[Niel Hoback]

 You probably need a new vacuum gauge. 

[55 Fargo]

4 hours ago, Niel Hoback said:

 You probably need a new vacuum gauge. 

Oddly enough, it could be verified by another.

Lower Vacuum readings in the range he is stating is usually 2 things,

1) Ignition timing way off

2) bad rings causing low compression

[Kool48]

4 hours ago, Niel Hoback said:

 You probably need a new vacuum gauge. 

Well just now that you brought this up.    I happened to ask a coworker to bring his into work so I could use his.   Mine and his are exactly the same guages.    But I noticed mine the needle is way below the zero mark.   His is real close.   So I bet mine was lying to me , probably by a good 4 or 4 inches of vacuum.   Can't wait to get home this evening and usr his to see what it says.     I also got my spare carb today.   So if needed I'll rebuild it.   But I'll buy a known good quality rebuild kit.  Not the cheap I bought off of eBay.  I'll post pics later if what I'm talking about.   My phone makes pics to large to load here.