1939 Plymouth Sedan - UK Update

[likaleica]

Thought I'd update you guys with progress on my 1939 Plymouth Touring Sedan that you've been kind enough to help me with some valuable advice and even parts.

The clutch was replaced a few months ago with a new one from Andy Bernbaum and it has transformed the drivetrain. I can even change down the box sometimes without double de-clutching - never could before.   But almost immediately,  a slight exhaust manifold/header leak on the car's original straight 6 flathead engine became much  worse.  Foreseeing problems I got my repair shop to investigate - and sure enough, several of the studs sheared off in the engine block in removing the manifold. With great difficulty the broken studs (one of them right by the firewall) were drilled out - mercifully avoiding lifting the whole motor out. But worse news was that the manifold had previously been poorly welded and was distorted. Even a specialist could not save it.  The internal metal flap that is part of the choke mechanism was broken beyond repair - though the repair shop guys say they don't think it really serves much purpose. Any views on that please ?

I saw a manifold/header on eBay at an eyewateringly high price...so I've posted a wanted advert on here. Please does anyone know if the part is the same for the two different length cylinder heads fitted to these cars?  But one stray thought - does anyone make a hot rod type tubular manifold/header for these engines ?

Thanks again for all the friendly help and advice - it's much appreciated.

[casper50]

if you have a 23 inch block which it should be unless it was an export model I have a stock intake and exhaust that you can have for shipping.  If you want to go tube try manifolds by moose.  He's a member here and also has a website.

 

http://www.manifoldsbymoose.com/

 

MIne's off of a 47 dodge.  Don't know if it will work.

Edited December 10, 2016 by casper50

[knuckleharley]

Sometimes if the manifolds are warped they can be milled flat. If that's not possible and you want to keep your car stock,take up Casper50 on his very kind offer of the ones he just pulled off his car.

The "flap" in the exhaust manifold is to open and close the choke on the carburetor. When it's open it applies exhaust heat to the carb,and as the engine warms up it closes again to allow the carb to release the choke. Not all that important if it is rusted shut,but a very big deal if it is rusted or stuck open. If looking at aftermarket 40's and 50's 2 or 3 carb manifolds for your engine,look for ones like the Edmunds that has hose fittings to use radiator coolant to provide carb heat if you drive your car in cold weather. If you only drive in warm weather,you can just disconnect your choke,block it open,and not worry about it.

Besides the aluminum after-market intakes from the 40's and 50's and the Headers by Moose,there is

 george ashey

814-354-2621

 He makes multiple carb intakes and split exhaust manifolds for flathead Mopars using original cast iron Mopar intakes and exhausts,and even provides the carb linkage and rebuilt carbs if you want them. Many members here have bought and used his products,and if any have complained,I don't remember hearing about it.

[dpollo]

The fastest repair is to take up Caspar 50's offer.  Manifolds for  a 23 inch engine will interchange from year to year. This would be the most likely one as all USA Dodge and Plymouth  used them.   If your car was built in Canada it will likely have the 25 inch head and these will all interchange but not with the 23 incher.   The heat riser is helpful in cold weather but since your car has a hand operated choke you can get along OK without it.    Glad your clutch repair worked out.

[likaleica]

Thanks for some very swift and helpful replies,  guys. Rather shamefacedly I have to admit that I don't know if my engine is 23" or 25" and as it is in the repair shop I may not be able to find out until Monday. My car IS a RHD export model but I think it was built in South Africa so not sure which engine it would have. The car is something of a hybrid,  with a floor shift like the P7 but quarter light windows like the P8. And when I needed a new brake drum it turned out to be a 1934 item! Guess they crated up whatever was lying around in the MIchigan plant at the time! Will keep you posted on progress

[Andydodge]

Likea.........you just gave some info which will be VERY helpful........your car is a RHD version which the USA guys will not be familiar with and which complicates the issue somewhat.............before I get into that can of worms........measure your engine head front to back.....if its closer to 23" then its the Plymouth Dodge small six that was used from the early 30's to 1959 in 201/218 and 230 capacities........if 25" long then its the Chrysler/De Soto large six that was used from the early 30's to around 1955 in the USa and here in Oz up to 1962..........the only items that readily swap between the 2 small and large engines are water pumps, thermostat housings, a few bolts & actual rubber engine/bell housing mounts.........in the USA the 23" engine was ONLY ever used in Plymouth/Dodge cars, the 25" engine ONLY ever in the Desoto/Chrysler cars .......HOWEVER in Canada all Dodge/Plymouth/DeSoto/Chrysler & Fargo cars and trucks ALL got the 25" engine.............and other markets like here in Oz, Sth Africa & the UK appear to have ended up with a mixed bag......some cars have the small engine, some the large.........here in Oz in some years in the late 50's BOTH engines, small and large were offered depending literally on what sort of gearbox was ordered, ie, whether 3 speed, with overdrive, or the 2 or 3 speed Powerflite or Torquflite........its a real dogs breakfast..............lol..............hot up gear is much more available for the 23" small engine, ie, finned heads, 2/3 carb intakes and headers..........but this is where it gets complicated........your cars RHD and the RHD steering box may fit in the same space that a set of headers wish to occupy.........I found this issue when trying to work out what setup to run in my 1941 Plymouth factory RHD Sth African built Coupe which had the stock 201 cube 23" long Plymouth engine.......the steering box would have been an issue for the front headers(they are in two groups of three pipes).......the other issue that the yanks cannot realise is that with RHD the brake and clutch pedals have a "follow thru" that brings the pedals into close contact with where  the rear header would or could live.............what I ended up doing is making a split header from the stock cast iron exhaust manifolds...............there are at least 3 different cast iron exhaust manifolds used on the Plymouth/Dodge 23" engine.........a front dump, centre dump and rear dump(the "rear" dump is in line with #7 cylinder if you follow me)...........I used a front dump and a centre dump manifold, removed the heat box, had the resulting hole welded and voila.........a two outlet exhaust manifold that would just clear the RHD steering box using a short angled pipe as seen ..........anyway I have attached a pic of this exhaust manifold setup I was going to use............I ended up selling the car and engine before installing but it would have given me some way of getting some varoom in RHD.............however you need to find out exactly what engine you have before getting into anything else ............lol..............btw that water pump shown in the pic is an Oz GM Holden type, just stick to the Mopar one & you'll be fine.......lol............hope this is some help........Andy Douglas.          

Edited December 12, 2016 by Andydodge

[likaleica]

Thanks very much for all this info, Andy!  Casper50 is kindly sending the headers to me from a LHD 47 Dodge for just the shipping costs.  In thanks for this generosity I will also make a $30 donation to our ex-servicemen's charity Help For Heroes.   

Even if I encounter the RHD complications, Casper50s items will give me something I can adapt as you've described - whereas my exhaust manifold is badly distorted and paper thin in places (presumably having been milled in the past.) 

It's going to be into the New Year until I have any progress to report  so I'm going to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their advice and expertise - and wish you all a Merry Christmas

[Andydodge]

Likea........have you worked out what length engine you have?.............andyd

[likaleica]

Hi Andy - yes it is a 23 inch block

[John Broadway]

Hi likaleica , plenty of those 23" 230 ci engines in UK , they were fitted in Dodge weapon carriers  and later Power Wagons which were in military reserve on the continent until the mid 70s . Ive got a few bits if you are short , and know a bunch of other people with stuff .

Are there many other Brits on here ?

John

[likaleica]

Hi John - welcome to this fantastic forum with so many very expert and kind members. I could not have made my own fairly recent foray into ancient American cars without them. Please send me a private message so we can keep in touch. 

[UKPlymouth]

Likealeica, obviously in to photography!  I'm in Northamptonshire and I too have a South African import, a 1948 P15 - with the 23" block.  Do you know of Dallas Auto parts?  They are in Berkshire and deal in Jeeps and Power Wagons.  I got all the parts including Valves, pistons and cam for an engine rebuild from them.   Also useful for plugs, points, condenser etc.  There's an annual meet at Sywell Aerodrome of Plymouths / Chryslers - held in September and organised by Robin - keep your eye out for his postings. 

Welcome to the world of Mopar!

[likaleica]

Thank you. Then you are not too far from me in Suffolk then! Strangely enough I bought the Plymouth from Stephen the owner of Dallas Auto in 2014. It will be a long shot that they'll have a RHD manifold for this engine but I'll ask them anyway. Will keep an eye out for that Sywell meet. Do you know where in South Africa the Chrysler assembly plant was as a matter of interest? I met an American car buff last year who reckoned my car probably came out of a vast collection of American vehicles hoarded by a man named Eddie Hall in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) when he died some years ago - but I have no idea if this is true. Like so many imports there was not a scrap of history with the car.

[Andydodge]

Likea........good that you know what engine you have, as far as I know there was not a "RHD" exhaust manifold, the 3 different outlet styles I have seen were due to production changes made over the years in the cars/trucks design requiring that the outlets be altered..........so where does the outlet on the exhaust manifold of your car dump?, as I mentioned there is a front dump, in line with #3 cylinder, what I call a centre dump where the outlet is between cylinders 5 & 6 which in my above pic provided the rear outlet I used and there is a "rear" dump in which the outlet is where #7 cylinder would be............there maybe more variations but these are three that I have actually seen.........my 41 Plymouth used the centre dump outlet so I knew that would clear and the front header pipe as shown was made to clear the steering box..........also my understanding was that Chrysler decided to open a plant in Sth Africa in 1941, however due to the US involvement in the war closed it in 1942.........my car was a factory RHD export model, supposedly  assembled in Sth Africa with all the proper USA things that the OZ made cars never had..................andyd.            

[likaleica]

Thanks for the clarification Andyd! So I can now see that the issue is not RHD versus LHD but that certain manifolds/headers will not fit my engine - in particular from later models, because of the RHD configuration. Part of the problem is I've entrusted the work to a repair shop some miles away from me and have not had chance to get over to see the stripped headers/manifolds myself. Just last night the guy sent me photos and mine is clearly a "rear dump"  type. I am going to try Dallas Auto here in the UK mentioned by UKPlymouth. Fingers crossed!

[Andydodge]

Likea..........I'm surprised that your manifold is the "rear" dump as I've not seen those on late 30's to 41 cars as the outlet seemed to be in the postion that would fowl on the brake/clutch pedal follow thru......I'd seen the rear dump on the late 40's/50's cars over here........anyway, the USA guys don't have this problem as the steering box & pedals are on the opposite side to the intake/exhaust.........probably why mopar put them on that side .........lol..........can you post a pic of your manifold............also have you tried to find a blacksmith?...........cast iron welding is generally their bag, at least that's who I got to weld up the 2 exhaust manifolds for me.......... .andyd