Anyone put a dry sump on their Lhead Mopar

[timkingsbury]

My Question is has anyone here put a dry sump oil system on a Flathead Mopar ? 

I am not looking for general dry sump experiences.

If you haven't but can point me in the direction of someone who has such an installation that would be super.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[Andydodge]

Tim.......I would think that it would have to have been a complete custom arrangement, main bearing caps, sump, external oil pump etc.......I'd be surprised if it had been done as I find it hard to imagine any use of the mopar 6 that would require such a setup......but I would be interested in being wrong............lol............just had a thought tho'......would it be possible to use the oil passage that's already drilled into the side of the block?......doesn't it have oil passages direct to each main journal?...........anyway, can you explain why you need this info.........I am very curious.........lol........have you thought about asking on the HAMB, there are some lateral thinkers on there..........regards, Andy Douglas..  

Edited November 22, 2016 by Andydodge

[DonaldSmith]

How did the 30-cylinder tank engine handle oil for the 6-cylinder blocks that were on their sides? 

[timkingsbury]

18 hours ago, Andydodge said:

Tim.......I would think that it would have to have been a complete custom arrangement, main bearing caps, sump, external oil pump etc.......I'd be surprised if it had been done as I find it hard to imagine any use of the mopar 6 that would require such a setup......but I would be interested in being wrong............lol............just had a thought tho'......would it be possible to use the oil passage that's already drilled into the side of the block?......doesn't it have oil passages direct to each main journal?...........anyway, can you explain why you need this info.........I am very curious.........lol........have you thought about asking on the HAMB, there are some lateral thinkers on there..........regards, Andy Douglas..  

Well  we know it has been done. Unfortunately the two people we know that have been involved are no longer with us.  In terms of need, we have a customer who had his race car come unglued when it was starved for oil while racing on a high banked race track.  In terms of the pressure side, yes  its been done on a few applications.  I will attach Rich Fox's salt flat 1932 Plymouth 4 cylinder engine.  It uses a pressure pump, and does  exactly that. But it pulls oil from the stock pan. The big key for a dry sump for us is to use a scavenger system to pull oil into a reservoir.  In terms of asking on Hamb, yes I have but haven't found a flathead mopar application actually done.   Just speculation and suggestions.   That well great  isn't what we are looking for. 

 

Attached what I call the Prezel rod, and my case for the need..   and a picture of the flathead 4 cylinder Plymouth with its external pressure pump.

 

 

[timkingsbury]

14 hours ago, DonaldSmith said:

How did the 30-cylinder tank engine handle oil for the 6-cylinder blocks that were on their sides? 

Not a bad suggestion.  It draws oil from a lower engine pan and pressurizes the system using the side oil passages. The lower plan holds 25 quarts of oil and it drains down to the lower oil tank/reserve.     The challenge we have is more the twice the rpm, with the normal circle track racing already naturally tossing the oil to the one side of the pan at higher rpm,  and then in essence, tossing the engine on its side and the oil balls up and doesn't drop until its too late for the engine.

 

So more capacity and a pump capable for more pressure and way more volume is a good start and might even do it, but we would like the scavenger side of a dry sump concept and of course we have lots of questions about the pressure side as well.

 

Tim

[Andydodge]

Tim......I have seen pics of Rich Fox's 4 cylinder but automatically thought that you were asking about the 6's.........you mention that it has been done........any reason why you can't tell us?..........and what class of racing is your customer involved in............I am not trying to upset anyone, am honestly curious and happy to learn new things..........anyway I appreciate the info.....andyd  

[55 Fargo]

4 hours ago, Andydodge said:

Tim......I have seen pics of Rich Fox's 4 cylinder but automatically thought that you were asking about the 6's.........you mention that it has been done........any reason why you can't tell us?..........and what class of racing is your customer involved in............I am not trying to upset anyone, am honestly curious and happy to learn new things..........anyway I appreciate the info.....andyd  

He is asking about the 6s, but used Fox's 4 cylinder as a reference, at least the way I read it.

Now Tim also mentions 2 who have did the "dry sump" before, but it sounds as if they may be deceased now, so possibly how they did it, is gone with them to the Old Mopar shop in the sky.

I am not sure if this was the point you are making, and sure Tim will chime in to explain....

[timkingsbury]

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 3:06 AM, Andydodge said:

Tim......I have seen pics of Rich Fox's 4 cylinder but automatically thought that you were asking about the 6's.........you mention that it has been done........any reason why you can't tell us?..........and what class of racing is your customer involved in............I am not trying to upset anyone, am honestly curious and happy to learn new things..........anyway I appreciate the info.....andyd  

I am looking for information about dry sump in a flathead 6 cylinder, although as I mentioned Rich's flathead 4 is not a dry sump system, just an external pressure pump. Our customer is into vintage road racing. 

[timkingsbury]

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 7:24 AM, Rockwood said:

He is asking about the 6s, but used Fox's 4 cylinder as a reference, at least the way I read it.

Now Tim also mentions 2 who have did the "dry sump" before, but it sounds as if they may be deceased now, so possibly how they did it, is gone with them to the Old Mopar shop in the sky.

I am not sure if this was the point you are making, and sure Tim will chime in to explain....

Your correct on all counts.  I put the picture of the 4 as I half expected someone to mention it, and it is not dry sump. I have talked to Rich personally about this and many of his projects.   Yes both people I know who have used dry sump systems on flathead 6 cylinder engines,  have gotten the checkered flag and are no longer with us.

 

Beyond that as a general comment, dry sump really is something that 99.999 % of builds would never need. That doesn't mean someone hasn't built and engine with it and that is what I was looking for. It is also something if I did know exactly what the ultimate configuration was, it wouldn't help many people. If its just a general knowledge of how dry sump systems work, that I am happy to point people in the right direction to learn about.   But for this specific project a little more than the high level knowledge of how it works is needed.

 

Tim

[Andydodge]

Rock & Tim..........I got the reference to the 2 persons who had done the dry sump thing as being deceased, however it seemed to me that there seemed to be some knowledge of what they had done, so I asked, also the reference to high bank racing with a mopar 6 also had me stumped, again I asked what class of racing is this as this is new to me, at least using a mopar side valve 6...........I'm not as I mentioned trying to annoy or upset anyone, just am always curious about engines, their design, use, modification etc and I would really like to see any pics or details of any dry sumped mopar 6..........whether by 2 deceased individuals or anyone else.........apologies if I have said the wrong thing or spoken out of turn..........being in country Oz you don't get to see much in the way of hipo innovation.........I assume that the use of various windage trays, modified oil pickups and the like have been tried...........regards, Andy Douglas  

[timkingsbury]

On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 11:35 PM, Andydodge said:

Rock & Tim..........I got the reference to the 2 persons who had done the dry sump thing as being deceased, however it seemed to me that there seemed to be some knowledge of what they had done, so I asked, also the reference to high bank racing with a mopar 6 also had me stumped, again I asked what class of racing is this as this is new to me, at least using a mopar side valve 6...........I'm not as I mentioned trying to annoy or upset anyone, just am always curious about engines, their design, use, modification etc and I would really like to see any pics or details of any dry sumped mopar 6..........whether by 2 deceased individuals or anyone else.........apologies if I have said the wrong thing or spoken out of turn..........being in country Oz you don't get to see much in the way of hipo innovation.........I assume that the use of various windage trays, modified oil pickups and the like have been tried...........regards, Andy Douglas  

Andy - since both of the deceased are directly related to me if there was enough knowledge I wouldn't have needed to ask.  Not trying to be difficult here but my intent was to see if anyone who frequents the site has actually done dry sump on a flathead mopar.  After that I am not interested in getting into a public discussion of who were are doing it for, where they are racing etc as its not ours to disclose. Again not trying to be difficult but its like many innovations and projects we have or are doing for people,  we have been burnt too many times getting into the discussions.   You are correct there has been lots tried before this customer came to us for help.

As an update, we have not found anyone who has done a dry sump system on any mopar flathead but now have the information required to set it up on a flathead mopar. The cost would be prohibitive to anyone building anything short of a specialized engine so really its relevance has pretty much ended so if the moderator wants to lock or delete it that is fine.

Edited December 4, 2016 by timkingsbury

[59bisquik]

I love that yellow 4 cylinder! I love the injector setup on it. Any more pictures or a link to it?