'49 Chrys Horn - Horn Ring

[DonaldSmith]

I share your bafflement.  

 

I misunderstood your post #23.  Plastic spacers - good.  Everything is OK, til the horn ring is installed.  Hmmm.

 

I had an incident with my DeSoto horn.  With the horn ring installed, it would only honk the horn if certain parts of it were pushed.   There is a cup that the spring fits into.  I had the spring on first, and the cup last.  It pushed things off center and prevented parts of the horn ring from being effective.  But your horn ring rocks perfectly.  Double Hmmm.

[DonaldSmith]

You said that you jumped the wire from the gizmo to the spring, and the horn blows.  It sounds like this was with the plastic spacers in place. 

 

With the wire plugged into the "Y" shaped gizmo, and the spacers removed so that the gizmo is contacting the spring, does the horn blow? It should.  If it doesn't, rocking the horn ring won't do anything.  

 

I don't know why I would imagine that there would be no continuity with the spring contacting the gizmo, but who knows?  Maybe someone coated something with a clear spray.  It's wild guess time, and this is my WAG.

[rb1949]

Don. True, see #20 above, first removal of ring. Spring rises to touch gizmo, horn blows. Isolate spring with spacers, and it doesn't blow. All is good. All contacts are making contact. Except when it's re-assembled. Re-checked those pictures (the identical '49 assembly), and don't see any part/piece that maybe was missing from mine. Appears there is no diagram showing all the parts in there. Grumble grumble, my first 'simple' project is becoming quite annoying. Get a boat air horn canister and hold it out the window?

[DonaldSmith]

Hold up a sign that says "Honk!"?

 

The spokes of the horn ring fit in recesses in the spokes of the steering wheel.  The ring can't go on backwards, and you would know if there were obstructions in the rocking motion.  Triple Hmmm. 

[rb1949]

Re-examined situation, but no clever solution. Gosh, how long can you sit there and look at 2 parts? Something is going to have to be modified, but not sure what/how. Maybe the spring is being compressed to far from the gizmo. By rocking the ring (with it's limited motion), the gap is too big to allow the spring to tilt enough and contact the gizmo. Just thinking out loud.

[DonaldSmith]

I'd hate to have you filing down the lugs on the horn ring, or doing something else beyond a point of no return.   Does someone else have a steering wheel of that vintage Chrysler, who could take photos of the parts for comparison?  

 

My DeSoto is quite different.  But here is a photo of the business end of my horn ring.  (It's a two part ring, and my gizmo is straight across instead of being "Y" shaped.)  Pardon the poor focus, but you can see the lugs that push the spring down. 

 

 

[rb1949]

Right, no modifications beyond return! But I have a dumb idea to try next time. Again, comparing current pictures, nothing seems to be missing in there. And snooping does not find a parts diagram. I contemplated that is was the horn ring itself (which is touching the spring) then by rocking, touching the metal under it. But the pot metal is non-conductive. More dumb thinking.

[DonaldSmith]

Pot metal is non-ferrous, a magnet won't stick, but it is conductive.  The horn ring is isolated from the grounded parts, otherwise the horn would sound when the horn ring presses the spring down.

 

The bafflement continues.  

 

It looks like you could leave the emblem and trim ring off, but install the hex-shaped thingie that holds the horn ring down against the spring.  Them maybe you could see how much motion you get when the ring is pushed.  (Maybe you did this already and I didn't catch it.)

 

Are the horn ring spokes distorted, so that they bottom in the grooves too soon?

[rb1949]

Spotted something unusual up in your pix of the 1950 assembly. That 'gizmo' is slightly different, but notice it has what looks like a 'strap' going from the gizmo and attached to the metal UNDER the horn ring. Hmmmm. Mine doesn't have that. You say the pot metal horn ring material IS conductive? If so, makes me think. The horn ring is touching the spring, making contact. Pressing the ring, it comes in contact with the metal underneath it. From the picture, this metal is connected to the gizmo, and by touching it, would complete the circuit to ground and honk the horn. Maybe rocking (pressing) does NOT attempt to make the spring alone touch the gizmo?? I can probably fabricate, or jump these pieces, to see if the theory works.

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

My strap-style gizmo is attached to the steering wheel with screws into threaded inserts in the plastic, so that the gizmo is not grounded to the hub of the wheel, thus the wire is not grounded, until the spring comes into play.  

 

I haven't checked whether my horn ring is grounded.  It shouldn't matter.  The ring pushes the spring down, and is grounded by contact with the spring anyway. The lugs of the horn ring push down the spring without contacting the gizmo.  Normal condition, spring pushed away from the gizmo, horn doesn't sound.

 

Pushing the horn ring in any location is supposed to pull the opposite lug(s) up and away from the spring, so that the spring contacts the gizmo and the horn sounds.   

 

Your photo shows the hex-shaped thing that holds the horn ring down.  Have you tried installing the horn ring without the decorative cap and sleeve?  Maybe this would allow you to see the movement of the horn ring and spring.  

 

I hope this helps.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Spotted something unusual up in your pix of the 1950 assembly. That 'gizmo' is slightly different, but notice it has what looks like a 'strap' going from the gizmo and attached to the metal UNDER the horn ring. Hmmmm. Mine doesn't have that. You say the pot metal horn ring material IS conductive? If so, makes me think. The horn ring is touching the spring, making contact. Pressing the ring, it comes in contact with the metal underneath it. From the picture, this metal is connected to the gizmo, and by touching it, would complete the circuit to ground and honk the horn. Maybe rocking (pressing) does NOT attempt to make the spring alone touch the gizmo?? I can probably fabricate, or jump these pieces, to see if the theory works.

I will have to take one apart to see how it grounds.

I know that 1948 wheels ground different than 1950 wheels and same goes for 1951-52 chrysler wheels.

It's the way the steering wheel hubs are made.

I went through this a few years back having issues trying to get a ground when swapping 1949 to 1952 chrysler wheels and horn parts.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Dodgeb4ya

[rb1949]

Don, as mentioned, that last picture is YOURS, of the 1950 parts you posted. The horn ring does not screw to the gizmo, it just sits on it, held in place by the center cap. So no, you cannot assemble only the ring to see what's going on under it. I totally agree with the original simple technique. Push down on the right side of the ring (spring), and the left side should rise up to contact the gizmo for the connection. And I believe all that, but, it doesn't work. The HMMMM'S are indeed annoying. Something is broken, missing or worn. Thinking will continue to fabricate a solution to this stupid horn. Wait til I get into a project with more than 2 PIECES!! Ha.

[rb1949]

HMMMM #99, back to my #34 post above. A connection from the 'gizmo' (having the horn wire) to the metal in the steering wheel, under the horn ring. Then touch that to ground and it honks. The theory works, or at least with a few jumper wires. (That pot metal is conductive). In the short time it was proven, I was freezing. Need to make a thin 'strap' to establish the connection, attached via existing screws. Then re-assemble, and test. Glad there are only 3 easy screws. Fingers are crossed. What a goofy project.

[rb1949]

Got to admit, my theory of adding a 'strap' was a failure. Worked via a jumper. But when re-assembled, it created a connection making the horn blow by itself.GRRRR. Remove piece. Stare at 2 parts again, and quit. Thinking is at a loss. Guess I'll have to nail an extra button somewhere.

[Don Coatney]

Got to admit, my theory of adding a 'strap' was a failure. Worked via a jumper. But when re-assembled, it created a connection making the horn blow by itself.GRRRR. Remove piece. Stare at 2 parts again, and quit. Thinking is at a loss. Guess I'll have to nail an extra button somewhere.

Suspect the wire running through the steering column is grounding allowing the horn to toot.

[rb1949]

All works perfectly when the spring is isolated from the gizmo. (a shorted wire would honk) It just doesn't work when pressing the ring.

PS: why did you upload all that white space in your signature? Cut it off below the last line of text. That's valuable real estate.

[DonaldSmith]

In post No 36, Dodgeb4ya said: 

 

"I will have to take one apart to see how it grounds.

"I know that 1948 wheels ground different than 1950 wheels and same goes for 1951-52 chrysler wheels.

"It's the way the steering wheel hubs are made.

"I went through this a few years back having issues trying to get a ground when swapping 1949 to 1952 chrysler wheels and horn parts." 

 

Awaiting word.  Maybe my 47 works differently than the later Mopar cars.  

 

Can anyone help here?  Anyone?  Anyone?  

Edited March 6, 2016 by DonaldSmith

[DonaldSmith]

One other wild goose chase:

 

When the end of the spring is pushed in one spot, does the spring tilt freely?  It should.  When the horn ring is pushed, it's supposed to let up on part of the spring, allowing it to tilt and contact the plate.  ("Plate" is what the diagram calls what I started calling the gizmo.  I have an exploded  diagram of the Plymouth steering wheel assembly, but it's pretty small.)

 

 

 

Gee, that enlarges enough when clicked.

Edited March 6, 2016 by DonaldSmith

[knuckleharley]

Got to admit, my theory of adding a 'strap' was a failure. Worked via a jumper. But when re-assembled, it created a connection making the horn blow by itself.GRRRR. Remove piece. Stare at 2 parts again, and quit. Thinking is at a loss. Guess I'll have to nail an extra button somewhere.

Just remember that before you set fire to your garage that this is the sort of thing that builds character,and in the long run becomes a GOOD thing.

[rb1949]

Picture is good. All these pix have basically the same setup in there. This spring is pretty stout, like dodgeB pix in post 8. It does tilt. Yes, awaiting further data for the '49 era.  Sure is a lot of commotion for 2 pieces.

[rb1949]

WHAT??? Knuckle has a '49 Windsor coupe???? Rip off your wheel and tell me what's wrong! Caution... it may not work afterwards. This character stuff is annoying.

[Dodgeb4ya]

I'll go out today and pull the wheel apart on my 1950 Royal wagon and Ohm test the wheel and post more pics.

Some misc pics of a 1947, 1949 and a 1950 Chrysler wheel.

More to come... These might help...

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dodgeb4ya

[Don Coatney]

PS: why did you upload all that white space in your signature? Cut it off below the last line of text. That's valuable real estate.

Thanks. I had to go figure out how to do that. Done deal now.

[Dodgeb4ya]

More pics..... Your horn ring when pressed is not touching the brass "Y" grounding (spider) .

 

With the horn medallion cover off can you watch to see how close one of the 3 lower horn ring contact pads comes to touching the brass spider leg when pressed down? It needs to touch the brass spider to complete the ground for the relay to close the horn contacts. You should be able to see one of the contact pads at the underside of the horn ring touch the brass spider when pressed at that same side... see picture.

 

The ground path is the steering tube to the steering wheel steel center hub... to the cup washer, up through spring and to the brass "Y" or spider.

If you touch a screw driver from the brass spider to the steering wheel nut the horn should honk with the key on..

 

The center ground wire connects this ground circuit to relay only when the horn ring is pressed and touches both the spring and one of the the brass spider legs all at the same time.

 

The 3 legged cast aluminum raised horn ring retainer is insulated from ground and has to orientate the horn ring at the proper height and circle position for the horn ring to be positioned right every time the horn ring  is pressed.

 

1946-48 Chrysler Wheel shown .. works the same.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dodgeb4ya

[rb1949]

Thanks Dodgeb......your discussion & pix puts me back on the theory that it's the horn ring which has to make the contact, and not the tilting of the spring. Pressing the ring to touch the spider to complete the connection didn't occur to me. Your pix of the process were perfect. On the '49 however, you cannot just attach the ring to the assembly (like the C48 pix), thus unable to observe what is going on underneath. The ring is held in place by the center cap, which has 3 screws from below. The cap does not just snap on as a decoration. The other pix has a 'horn ring retainer', allowing you to install the ring and see the action. SO, if mine is not touching the spider when pressed, the question is, why not? There are a few new ideas floating now to evaluate problems and perhaps rectify the situation. All input is definately appreciated. Will keep posting until this is solved.