Jim Yergin Posted February 2, 2011 Report Posted February 2, 2011 I have re-installed my Borg Warner overdrive transmission in my '41 P12 after going back through it and re-sealing it to stop a fairly good leak. Used new gaskets and Permatex Rite-Stuff. Seems to work. Before I installed the solenoid, I tested it on the bench by applying power and the plunger snapped out and held. After installing it in the car I checked it again with the top cap off the solenoid so that I could see the plunger. When I grounded the contact on the governor the plunger snapped out and stayed out as long as I had it grounded. However the spring around the plunger vibrated up and down for around 30 to 45 seconds and then stopped moving. After that, when I grounded the governor contact the plunger moved out and there was no vibration at the spring. After letting it sit for a while I went back to check it again and the same thing happened with the 30 to 45 seconds of vibration and then regular operation. It appears that the solenoid will operate the o/d correctly but will just vibrate for a period of time until it is "warmed up." Does anyone have any idea what is going on with it? Thanks. Jim Yergin Quote
Joe Flanagan Posted February 2, 2011 Report Posted February 2, 2011 Apparently, that solenoid thinks it can take you down, Jim. No system on that car has beaten you yet, though many have tried. It's just trying to make a name for itself. Quote
Kevinb71 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Posted February 2, 2011 Perhaps sinc the trans isn't turning it isn't pulling completly into gear? Quote
suntennis Posted February 2, 2011 Report Posted February 2, 2011 Have not tested the solenoid like you have. My guess is the interlock plunger that is moved by the solenoid is hanging up and causing the chatter. If this is the case, perhaps it would not happen if all the parts were moving as in normal driving application. Quote
Jim Yergin Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Posted February 2, 2011 Perhaps sinc the trans isn't turning it isn't pulling completly into gear? Have not tested the solenoid like you have. My guess is the interlock plunger that is moved by the solenoid is hanging up and causing the chatter. If this is the case, perhaps it would not happen if all the parts were moving as in normal driving application. I thought that too but the thing is that the solenoid plunger is not moving back and forth with the spring, it stays out in the extended position. I guess I will just have to test drive it. Thanks. Jim Yergin Quote
DJ194950 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Posted February 2, 2011 is trans a r-10? if so, with cap off and solenoid energized the plunger plate pulls down and opens the points for the pull in windings leaving on only the hold windings energized. check to make sure the lower set of points are completely opened. maybe they are not fully opened and making slight contact. dirty plunger? or point adjustment. just my thoughts as i've testing 2 6v. solenoids and repairing a 12v. unit. doug 50 4dr. 49 suburban Quote
Jim Yergin Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Posted February 2, 2011 is trans a r-10?if so, with cap off and solenoid energized the plunger plate pulls down and opens the points for the pull in windings leaving on only the hold windings energized. check to make sure the lower set of points are completely opened. maybe they are not fully opened and making slight contact. dirty plunger? or point adjustment. just my thoughts as i've testing 2 6v. solenoids and repairing a 12v. unit. doug 50 4dr. 49 suburban Thanks Doug. That makes sense. I will check it out. Jim Yergin Quote
Jim Yergin Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Posted February 2, 2011 is trans a r-10?if so, with cap off and solenoid energized the plunger plate pulls down and opens the points for the pull in windings leaving on only the hold windings energized. check to make sure the lower set of points are completely opened. maybe they are not fully opened and making slight contact. dirty plunger? or point adjustment. just my thoughts as i've testing 2 6v. solenoids and repairing a 12v. unit. doug 50 4dr. 49 suburban Thanks Doug. It is an R10. That makes sense. I will check it out. Jim Yergin Quote
suntennis Posted February 3, 2011 Report Posted February 3, 2011 DJ, Nice to see there is someone else that has a Suburban. Mine is a 52. Quote
Jim Yergin Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Posted February 3, 2011 I removed the solenoid last night and disassembled it. I cleaned the plunger and dressed the contact points. Once reassembled I powered it up and the plunger deployed and opened the lower points as designed. However, with it back in the transmission when powered up I could see that the lower points were not completely opening up as Doug described. It appears that the plunger does not travel far enough to open the points. There must be something blocking its full travel. It may just be that the transmission must be moving to line up everything to allow the plunger to deploy completely. However before trying it on the road, I thought I would follow the instructions in the Borg Warner service manual on making sure that the blocking ring is properly oriented. The manual also stated that if the lockout lever/cable is not properly adjusted there could be a buzzing noise. I will need to check that too. Jim Yergin Quote
DJ194950 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Posted February 3, 2011 could you possibly have incorrect solenoid?? from what i've read there were some different models with the one major differance was the lenght of the lenght of the plunger rod. the mopar unit is supposed to be about 1" retracted and about 1-3/8" activated as measured from end of round flange to end of plunger per pics. best pics i could get with my well used tape measure. sorry! stay after it bulldog! happy hunting doug Quote
Jim Yergin Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Posted February 3, 2011 Doug, Anything is possible but this is the one that was on the O/D when I got it and I have never changed it. The O/D actually did work for a day before it quit working about a year or so ago. I am determined to get it working again. Thanks for your input, it is much appreciated. Jim Yergin Quote
Jim Yergin Posted June 19, 2011 Author Report Posted June 19, 2011 Here is where I am now. I replaced the solenoid with a new one. It actuated correctly but would still not go all the way down to lock-in the OD. Took the transmission a part and made sure eveything was lined up correctly. Re-installed the transmission but then had the problem of the clutch gear assembly locking up in second. I fixed that but still no OD. Checked the controls. The relay is operating when grounded but the solenoid does not activate. Checked the voltage. 6.5 volts at the relay power input but 5.5 volts at the power out terminal and at the solenoid terminal. Ran a new heavier gauge line (8 gauge) to the solenoid but still only 5.5 volts. Used a battery jumper cable directly from the negative battery post to the solenoid and it activated. Apparently I am losing voltage in the relay resulting in not enough voltage reaching the solenoid to activate it. Does this mean bad contacts inside the relay that can be cleaned or should I just replace the relay? When I have time I think I will run a bypass wire from the power in terminal on the relay directly to the solenoid with a switch inside the car that can be turned on while driving. Then I can see what happens. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. Jim Yergin Quote
suntennis Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) Did you clean the fuse contact area and fuse? Did you check input voltage to OD relay and the output voltage at the OD relay? Edited June 19, 2011 by suntennis Quote
Jim Yergin Posted June 19, 2011 Author Report Posted June 19, 2011 Did you clean the fuse contact area and fuse? Did you check input voltage to OD relay and the output voltage at the OD relay? Yes, yes and yes but thanks for the suggestions. Jim Yergin Quote
Howard Tarnoff Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 I chased my overdrive for two years and finally got on the phone with George. Although I converted to 12 volts GA suggested we not use the aftermarket 12V solinoid and use a good 6 volt which he supplied. We then used a remote starter switch to operate the overdrive bypassing the gov to make certain we were getting full voltage and current. In putting it all back together we replaced the old relay with a modern cube relay, put in an Asche Wiring Harness, and poof - it still did not work for more than a week or two reliably. If I were to keep the car I would be talking with Don about his tremec set up and tossed the overdrive in the junk pile. I would have saved thousands of dollars and several hundred hours. Quote
Dodgeb4ya Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 I chased my overdrive for two years and finally got on the phone with George. Although I converted to 12 volts GA suggested we not use the aftermarket 12V solinoid and use a good 6 volt which he supplied. We then used a remote starter switch to operate the overdrive bypassing the gov to make certain we were getting full voltage and current. In putting it all back together we replaced the old relay with a modern cube relay, put in an Asche Wiring Harness, and poof - it still did not work for more than a week or two reliably.If I were to keep the car I would be talking with Don about his tremec set up and tossed the overdrive in the junk pile. I would have saved thousands of dollars and several hundred hours. Toss the OD in my junk pile please! Quote
suntennis Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 I would guess that you are sure that the solenoid plunger is fitted into the pawl in the OD correctly. If not, this would prevent the plunger from extending as far as it needs to. The pawl in the OD normally will need to have the car driving, OD selected, speed above 28mph and the gas pedal let up on before it will be able to allow the plunger to extend to the normal distance. The pawl fits into a metal plate that has slots that can move. It is possible that when the car is stopped that one of the slots would be alligned so as to allow the pawl to a slide all the way in it. Bottom line, drive the car and see if it will go into OD. One thing that I do not understand is why you are getting a drop in voltage between the output side of the relay and solenoid. The is a web page that has a photo of the plate I refer to. Look at http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/t85n/rebuild.htm Quote
Jim Yergin Posted June 19, 2011 Author Report Posted June 19, 2011 I would guess that you are sure that the solenoid plunger is fitted into the pawl in the OD correctly. If not, this would prevent the plunger from extending as far as it needs to. The pawl in the OD normally will need to have the car driving, OD selected, speed above 28mph and the gas pedal let up on before it will be able to allow the plunger to extend to the normal distance. The pawl fits into a metal plate that has slots that can move. It is possible that when the car is stopped that one of the slots would be alligned so as to allow the pawl to a slide all the way in it. Bottom line, drive the car and see if it will go into OD. One thing that I do not understand is why you are getting a drop in voltage between the output side of the relay and solenoid. The is a web page that has a photo of the plate I refer to. Look at http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/t85n/rebuild.htm Thanks Suntennis. I am not getting any movement in the solenoid from the power line from the relay but I do get movement when I connect the solenoid terminal directly to the negative post on the battery using a battery jumper cable. I drove the car today - no OD using the relay. I am going to wire the solenoid directly to power with a switch in the car and without the relay and see what happens. Jim Yergin Quote
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