Sumac Red sample needed - revisiting subject

[Robin (UK)]

Hi All,

Sadly, my search for a sample of Sumac Red hasn't come to fruition.

So I'm still hoping someone out there in Plymouthland can help.

Does anyone have a well-matched mix that they could spray onto a small piece of metal or plastic and post to me in the UK? (approx 6 inches square should be OK)

I'll happily cover costs and make a donation to the Forum.

Thanks guys.

Robin.

[Frank Blackstone]

Robin I will at least ask my paint guys if they have any or a manufacturers sample we call paint chip. Do you have a manufacturer?

[David Maxwell]

I know there has been a lot of discussion about the paint chip sets fading over time etc. I not only don't buy that argument, but went to several paint experts who agreed that the paint chips are accurate in spite of their age. If you have a set, you can take it to a paint shop with a spectrometer and they can match the chip exactly. If you don't have a set, they are available online from several sources including Art Davidson who sells literature and old paint chip sets. He often has an auction on ebay, but I think you can run a search for him online and contact him directly. GTK might even have a link to him on this site.

I took a dashboard to my local shop that has a spectrometer and they matched the vogue brown perfectly including the correct size and volume of metal flake in the original paint. I compared their results to a NOS steering wheel and it was indistinguishable.

Hi All,

Sadly, my search for a sample of Sumac Red hasn't come to fruition.

So I'm still hoping someone out there in Plymouthland can help.

Does anyone have a well-matched mix that they could spray onto a small piece of metal or plastic and post to me in the UK? (approx 6 inches square should be OK)

I'll happily cover costs and make a donation to the Forum.

Thanks guys.

Robin.

[oldmopar]

This company sells paint to match original color. Not sure what it would cost to ship to you

http://www.tcpglobal.com/autocolorlibrary/default.aspx

[David Maxwell]

I might contact them and ask how they match the paint. Since they seem to have all paint chip sets and I don't believe any of the paint codes match anymore, I assume they are using a spectrometer to match the paints. If not, I noticed that it was very difficult to read the code for Sumac Red on their chip set. I have the Sherwin Williams set and the code for Sumac Red on theirs is 32611. Best of luck!

This company sells paint to match original color. Not sure what it would cost to ship to you

http://www.tcpglobal.com/autocolorlibrary/default.aspx

[David Maxwell]

...in the Reference section of this site.

The modern PPG code listed by GTK, matches the 70004 code that was barely legible on the paint chip set. Odd though, because when contacting paint companies, they told me the old numbers didn't match anything in the system. Hmmm... definitely ask a lot of questions before buying... Especially online.

Edited December 4, 2009 by David Maxwell
typo

[B-Watson]

...in the Reference section of this site.

The modern PPG code GTK shows listed matches the 70004 code that was barely legible on the paint chip set. Odd though because when contacting paint companies, they told me the old numbers didn't match anything in the system. Hmmm... definitely ask a lot of questions before buying... Especially online.

The "modern" chip set probably dates back to the 1940's. PPG used to print the date the sheet was issued in the bottom right corner. "70004" dates back to 1942 when Ditzler dropped their "IML" lacquer and "QDE" enamel numbering for a uniform system with identifying prefix. The 70000 series was for reds and Sumac Red was the fourth red renumbered. Not sure what the IML/QDE numbers were - those sheets are really hard to find.

Chrysler used Sumac Red (70004) in 1941 and Dodge used it under the name of Squad Red in 1942-48. All the same colour, same code and same formula.

Also, each manufacturer had unique codes for the same colour. Only Ditzler (PPG) used 70004 for Sumac/Squad Red - DQE-70004 for enamel and DAL-70004 for lacquer. DuPont was 93-6916-R for enamel and 225-34459-R for lacquer, Sherwin-Williams 32611, Acme 6268-A, and Martin-Senour 61-673 for lacquer and 80-209 for enamel. Reds cost more due to the red pigment used, by the way.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

[David Maxwell]

...they are using these numbers to match the colors with modern paint or do you think they are matching the colors with a spectrometer like my paint shop did? As I mentioned, each shop I spoke with said that the old codes were useless to them because the forumulas for modern paints were so different due to EPA requirements etc.

The "modern" chip set probably dates back to the 1940's. PPG used to print the date the sheet was issued in the bottom right corner. "70004" dates back to 1942 when Ditzler dropped their "IML" lacquer and "QDE" enamel numbering for a uniform system with identifying prefix. The 70000 series was for reds and Sumac Red was the fourth red renumbered. Not sure what the IML/QDE numbers were - those sheets are really hard to find.

Chrysler used Sumac Red (70004) in 1941 and Dodge used it under the name of Squad Red in 1942-48. All the same colour, same code and same formula.

Also, each manufacturer had unique codes for the same colour. Only Ditzler (PPG) used 70004 for Sumac/Squad Red - DQE-70004 for enamel and DAL-70004 for lacquer. DuPont was 93-6916-R for enamel and 225-34459-R for lacquer, Sherwin-Williams 32611, Acme 6268-A, and Martin-Senour 61-673 for lacquer and 80-209 for enamel. Reds cost more due to the red pigment used, by the way.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

Edited December 4, 2009 by David Maxwell
typo

[B-Watson]

...they are using these numbers to match the colors with modern paint or do you think they are matching the colors with a spectrometer like my paint shop did? As I mentioned, each shop I spoke with said that the old codes were useless to them because the forumulas for modern paints were so different due to EPA requirements etc.

Spectrometer. All the base paints and tints have changed with the newer formulas and thus it is impossible to mix old colours using new paints.

So, if you have a good chip of paint to use (the shade you want), take it to a shop that has a spectrometer and get them to make the colour you want in your choice of modern paint. Much less hassle although not as much fun searching through the hundreds of different shades and hues.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

[Robin (UK)]

Thanks Guys,

Really appreciate all your input.

Here are my problems....

PAINT CODES - as mentioned, the base paints have changed, so old codes and mixes won't quite match.

UK SYSTEMS - UK base paints are different again, making it impossible to cross-refer to US systems, even if I can get an up-to-date code/formula from the same manufacturer

SPECTROMETER - I am told by paint experts that red tints are notoriously difficult to match with a spectrometer

It looks like I'll have to buy a couple of vintage chips from one of the literature dealers and get a visual match made. (or I could go round and steal Bob T's dashboard! )

Thanks for all your recommendations.

Robin.

[normanpitkin]

hi robin,

i have a 1946 dupont colour chip card(1946 chrysler bulletin 13 with sumac red on it!! the chip is about 2cm by 4cm ,i could post it to you as long as you post it back!!! pm me on william@waglandtextiles.com with your address and i will post it on monday from my office in london