Throw out bearing

[47heaven]

What are some early signs that it will be going out soon?

[Jim Saraceno]

I've never actually had that happen to me but I would think it would start making some noise.

[Merle Coggins]

I've experienced it a couple of times. I had one truck that went through 2 of them and I never did figure out why. But I noticed the pedal felt funny a couple of times then it began squeeling when the pedal was depressed. One of these times I was on my way up to the U.P. of Michigan to repair a customer's piece of equipment. I managed to limp it to the job and back home (300+ miles) by only using the clutch to put it into 1st gear to get moving from a stop. After that, clutchless shifts would get me up to speed. To stop I would pop it into neutral and brake to a stop. It was an interesting trip.

Merle

[47heaven]

Well, what I have been hearing is a low bearing noise, or at least what I think is a bearing noise, as the car is in idle and out of gear. When I step on the clutch, the noise stops and then starts again when the pedal is depressed. More kind of a hovering sound, if anything.

[Don Coatney]

When I step on the clutch, the noise stops and then starts again when the pedal is depressed.

Is the noise present when you step on the clutch pedal (depressed), or when you release the clutch (no foot on the pedal)?

[lancair90]

Sometimes when the noise is heard with the clutch pedal out and the transmission in nuetral., the noise comes from the needle bearings in the central shaft of the transmission.

Can you hear it when running in low and second also?

[47heaven]

When I step on the clutch, the noise stops and then starts again when the pedal is depressed.

Is the noise present when you step on the clutch pedal (depressed), or when you release the clutch (no foot on the pedal)?

Whoops...human error there. I meant when I let off the gas pedal. Gotta stop typing so fast.

So what's your diagnosis, Don?

[47heaven]

Sometimes when the noise is heard with the clutch pedal out and the transmission in nuetral., the noise comes from the needle bearings in the central shaft of the transmission.

Can you hear it when running in low and second also?

Not so much as when it's at idle. Again, the noise stops when I push in the clutch (not depress)

[Merle Coggins]

Alright, now that we're thoroughly confused let me see if I can add to it.

When you depress the clutch pedal (press it down) you disengage the clutch and the input shaft stops spinning. This is when the noise goes away? Then when you let the clutch pedal back up (no longer depressed), the clutch engages and the input shaft spins again. This is when the noise is present? This would verify that the noise is coming from the bearing between the input shaft and the main shaft.

Merle

[mikesinky]

might be your front bearing in your transmission where the input shaft comes out. i had a dodge d50 that done the same thing to me. started out as a little noise kinda like knobby tires on the road then progressed to where i had to turn the stereo way up just to hear george jones a singing. found a transmission in the junkyard replaced and was on the road again in no time. i think i left the stereo up though you just cant beat a good george jones song. but hell i dont think he has ever had a bad one.

[47heaven]

might be your front bearing in your transmission where the input shaft comes out. i had a dodge d50 that done the same thing to me. started out as a little noise kinda like knobby tires on the road then progressed to where i had to turn the stereo way up just to hear george jones a singing. found a transmission in the junkyard replaced and was on the road again in no time. i think i left the stereo up though you just cant beat a good george jones song. but hell i dont think he has ever had a bad one.

Yeah, it has a similar sound to what you describe, but again, the sound goes away when I push the clutch in, but continues when I let the clutch out. This I can only hear at idle because when I'm driving there is too much noise between the engine and glasspacks to hear anything.

[Normspeed]

Seems kinda like a transmission noise more than a release bearing. When the pedal is down, everything stops spinning except the throwout bearing. When you release the pedal, some of the shafts, gears and bearings in the trans are in motion. Have you had the transmission gear oil level checked lately? Has it been leaving any puddles under the car?

[Don Coatney]

If you can make the noise come and go by use of the gas pedal and/or pushing the clutch pedal to the floor then I believe the noise is coming from your differential.

If your throw out bearing were failing it would be noisy only when the clutch pedal is pushed to the floor. I am assuming that your clutch free play is adjusted correctly.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Don Coatney

[mikesinky]

a bearing going bad in the trans would also get louder the more gas you give it the faster it sping the more noise it would make. it shouldnt be that hard to determine if it s the trans or diff. if hothing else jack the car up scotch and block it good put it in gear crawl under it and see where its coming from.

[Normspeed]

Don, Darin mentioned he hears the noise at idle with the car out of gear. The diff wouldn't be in the picture in neutral, would it?

[47heaven]

Ok...did some venturing into this sound this weekend with a buddy of mine, who is good at picking out engine noises and such because he works with gears. He determined that the sound it's making are definately coming from the needle bearings, like lancair90 had mentioned. I did add more gear oil (it was a little low), and that helped the sound a little, but it's still present. I assumed that the O/D trans has never been rebuilt. My buddy said that I can still drive the car the way it is, but the bearings are only going to get worse with time, so unfortunately a rebuild will be needed soon. Thanks for all your imput!

Are there Borg-Warner R-10 rebuild kits out there still?

[Normspeed]

Darin, a lot of the internal stuff in the overdrive transmission uses the same parts as standard 3 speed of the same vintage. There are a couple differences on the OD trans but most gears, shafts, synchros and bearings interchange. Sometimes a good donor 3 speed can save a lot of bucks in parts if it's not totally worn out. You do need to make sure both transmissions have either strut type or both have the pin type syncronizers though. Can't mix the two.

The overdrive itself replaces the long tailshaft and housing bolted to the back of the transmission. the OD uses a different gasket and seal kit though. It takes some digging but the parts are still out there.

Those needle or roller bearings ride on hardened and polished shafts, but I've seen neglected bearings ruin a shaft.

As I recall, you got a terrific deal on that overdrive trans, and you've really rolled on some miles since then, so well worth the cost of a good rebuild, if you can find a decent shop.

[47heaven]

Norm...I still have the trans that I was in the car when I got it. As far as I remember, it was still a good trans. Since so many things were swapped out on that car, I don't know if the trans was part of the original '47engine or from the '55 Ply engine that was in there. How would one know?

[Don Coatney]

Contact forum member James Douglas. I believe he had a line on overdrive parts in San Francisco.

[Normspeed]

If you inspect the old trans closely, you might find a manufacture date stamped on the edge of the case, at the very front of the trans. Hard to see it, but here is the date stamp on mine. Both my OD and my donor were 1953 units.

Hollander says 41-48 have the speedometer connection on right side while 49 and up have it on the left side.

The big difference over the years was the internal change from strut type to pin type synchronizers. I don't know a good way to tell what is inside a trans without dismantling it.

Hollander book says: "it is not possible for us to indicate which are pin-type and which are not, beyond the fact that pin type trans were first installed in 1951 cars. Pin type trans are identified by a slotted head bolt on extreme lower position of extension housing, by the 4 leaf clover stamped on date line on L.H. side or by "PT" stamped at rear of case on driver side."

But, neither of my 53 pin type units had any of those identifiers. Go figure:D. Wish I had the four leaf clover, sounds pretty cool.

There are forum folks that are much more knowledgeable than me on transmissions, maybe they can offer more info. You may get lucky and find that yours only really needs the bearings replaced, with no need for a donor trans.

I dealt with a place in Portland Oregon called Transmission Exchange. 503-284-0768. There was no kit available except the Overdrive gasket set and the "small parts kit" that contained bearings and such. Everything else was sold piece by piece. Cost me a little over $300 in parts.

[james curl]

I passed up a chance to buy a 59 230 I/6 and overdrive for $100.00 at the Pate swap meet, talked another fellow into buying them. He has a 34 Coupe and a 49 Business coupe. The engine did not have a front mount but side mounts and the OD was long and had modern shift arm system, each arm controling two gears each. It appeared that it would have been hard to install the unit as a whole in a P-15. It used the transmission for the rear mount, I think the transmission might have been an early 833, maybe someone here can add to this that knows about the last flathead powered Plymouths, 1959. My motors manual says that the 59 transmission is a one year only on flathead engines. The 59 Plymouths had the torsion bar front suspension and the motor mounts are on the sides.

[paulbone]

Just to confuse the issue, I suspect mine to be going on my '39 P7, and that manifests itself as a judder as you lift off the clutch - typical sympton on most manual cars when the bearing starts to go.

Good luck.