Thanks, Johnny S (et al)

[Guest mike_D24]

So John lent me his drum puller (I couldn't wait the 7-10 days for the one I purchased to come in...I need to work on the whole zen/patience thing).

We met at the Denver Swap meet. Not much there in the way of Mopar, as it tended to be ford and chevy. That which went the way of Daimler-Chrysler didn't go back quite as far as I needed. There was this 51 Chevy, that was damn sweet, though...I hope that's not blasphemous.

Besides, I was just browsing. With specific parts in mind, I probably could have dug through the bins a bit better.

Anyhow, the temp should be higher this week, and I can't wait to get on the new brakes.

So I charged up the battery and got her running again today. I decided to carefully tool over to a straight, empty backroad next to my place so I could feel the ride at speeds around 30. Being comfortable with engine braking (not very significant with fluid drive, huh), and feeling out the brake pedal's limited abilities, I felt safe enough to move.

So here's what I know now for what needs immediate attention:

--Startup is fine at above freezing temps. It's going to be a breathing issue.

--The battery is constantly being drained while running. Amps are constantly in the negative. That explains the hard start and slow crank after running once before.

--Steering is going to need some looking at. There's about 15-20deg of free play in the wheel. I will not be driving it above parking lot speeds again.

Until I get my manuals in (this week, I believe) I won't really know what parts I'll need to replace. If, however, there are specific areas to attack, so I don't waste time investigating superfluous stuff, I'd love to hear it.

My list is really just beginning, but I figure by the time I've compiled a full list, the weather will be getting better here, and I can attack with full force.

List (in estimated order of high-low priority):

1)brakes

2)steering (and other column stuff...turn signal lever is too loose)

3) U joints

4)wiring (I might just fab up a harness)

5)paint (sanding, bondo, primer...then I might do a basic Maaco for the time being. I just want to seal the thing up and make it purdy while I try and earn some more money to get a real paint job)

6)tires/wheels (I think these are bias-ply, and I'd like to switch to a tubeless, radial option if possible)

7) other body stuff (rear bumper, door runners...is that what they're called?, some chrome stuff)

8) dash (it's in good condition, and thanks to Tim's pics and advice, I'll have it popping in no time)

Anyway, as the list gets longer, I'm actually getting more excited. Strange. Come on, good weather, don't fail me now.

Next list will be one for tools. Having two metric bikes, I'll need to get some new tools, for sure.

Take care, everyone.

And thanks John and others!

Mike

[Guest jtw3749c]

Who would have ever thought one could get so excited about doing so much work? Funny isn't it. I did and still do get that way about my old cars. Can't get excited about the wifes Park Avenue though. Just not the same thing.

Anyway, go for it. It's gotta be love!

JT

[Guest Nile Limbaugh]

Before you tackle the steering box make sure that all of the tie rod end are not worn and the steering arms are tight to the backing plates. Check king pins for play, front wheel bearings and even make sure that the steering box itself is tight to the frame. I had a Rambler once with loose steering: the box was about to fall off of the frame!

[Johnny S]

Mike, you are welcome. Anyone with as much enthusiasm for your new found love deserves the attention. I did find it amusing when you got into the swap meet and described yourself on the phone as "the guy wearing the blue jeans and blue sweatshirt"........."like everyone else in here!"....end quote. I'll get the photo we took at the meet posted to the forum in the am tomorrow.

I did pick up a dual action fuel pump for $15. The '51 Chevy was sweet...actually owned by a guy I use to work with in my work-a-day life. It still has the in-line Chevy 6 cylinder but looked a lot like a street rod on the outside with neat paint and a set of race looking tires on the back. I also saw a 1960 Ute and took photos and a 1936 Dodge flat bed that was pretty nice. Found some 49 Plymouth gauges, a few 49 Plymouth bumpers, a couple of Ball and Ball one barrel carbs and a few misc boxes of Mopar parts...mostly for mid 50's era cars. Also found a 49 Plymouth Convertible (photo only) but the guy doesn't want to part with its location (he doesn't own it). The owner just passed away in 2006. Didn't see much at all for the P15's. A few tail light lens was about it.

So Mike....keep the enthusiasm. You just need to keep in mind that you will find some things that aren't as easy to solve as you would like. Take your time and get it into the condition you need to work for you. I'd suggest getting it into a shop project at your school for new paint and maybe some brakes and a front suspension job. Heck you get the work done and the school provides the labor. Can't go wrong with that....just make sure they have the correct manuals to work from.

[Guest mike_D24]

Before you tackle the steering box make sure that all of the tie rod end are not worn and the steering arms are tight to the backing plates. Check king pins for play, front wheel bearings and even make sure that the steering box itself is tight to the frame. I had a Rambler once with loose steering: the box was about to fall off of the frame!

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind as soon as I figure out what the heck all that looks like. Keep in mind, my knowledge of these things is all text book so far. That's kind of why I got the car. I figured it was time to actually touch some metal and grease instead of just reading all about it.

I'm a newbie in the truest sense, and it's not just based on my number of posts here. Fortunately, I'm a fast learner, and I've been able to transfer some of my knowledge of bikes over to mopar. No steering boxes or tie rods there, though.

Thanks again.

Mike

[1just4don]

...your battery isnt in backwards??? It will cause a discharge driving and it will crank okay backward too. Harder starting tho. OR check to see if some previous knothead didnt change polarity on your coil, and THEY had a battery in backwards??? Either that or change out your regulator. Still running a 6v generator??? pretty strange to discharge(that much) only while running. Does the battery go dead sitting still? Like for days on end?? If all else fails check your hot wire to coil for 'bare' spots!! Put a gauge on your generator and see if its charging.

does your high altitude cause your fuel mixture to be too rich??

[Guest mike_D24]

I'd suggest getting it into a shop project at your school for new paint and maybe some brakes and a front suspension job. Heck you get the work done and the school provides the labor. Can't go wrong with that....just make sure they have the correct manuals to work from.

I thought about that after you mentioned it. Unfortunately it just wouldn't fly. Times have changed (for the worse, I say). Shop and metals classes are scarce in schools these days. Most have been supplemented by computer classes and more often are completely replaced by standardized test prep classes. It's sad. There would be too many liability issues involved in having them do work. Especially since these parents expect their kids are all Ivy Leaguers and will simply buy a new car when their current one breaks down.

It sure would be neat, though. At the very least, I could teach them a thing or two about IC engines and take them on a mini field trip to pop the hood on my D24. They would get such a kick out of that. I can't wait to get it a little prettier. It's so easy to look in there and see what's happening. Heck, you can even hear what's happening in that low-idle flat head.

Mike

[Guest mike_D24]

...your battery isnt in backwards??? It will cause a discharge driving and it will crank okay backward too. Harder starting tho. OR check to see if some previous knothead didnt change polarity on your coil, and THEY had a battery in backwards??? Either that or change out your regulator. Still running a 6v generator??? pretty strange to discharge(that much) only while running. Does the battery go dead sitting still? Like for days on end?? If all else fails check your hot wire to coil for 'bare' spots!! Put a gauge on your generator and see if its charging.

does your high altitude cause your fuel mixture to be too rich??

I hadn't thought of that. Is it the negative that should be grounded? That's what I would imagine, so I didn't think twice about the setup. The cables are the large gauge. The coil, though, I didn't look too closely at. It looks original, so I wouldn't guess anyone would switch it.

What I do notice is that sometimes I'll press the starter and it will start to turn the crank (sometimes no more than half turn...other times 4 or 5 turns) and then it will release and make a whizzing sound like it's spinning freely. I initially figured this was a capacitance-based safety to prevent burn-out.

Oh. Here's something I forgot. When I popped out the battery, I found that the negative contact had melted the top of the battery. It was heat-related. I checked to see that all connections were legit. They seemed clean and connected.

Thoughts?

Mike

Edit: And yes, I bet I'm a bit rich. The gas has a bit of a rich odor (one thing I've been able to transfer from bike work) and there's some low-range bogging. I'll tweak that soon enough.

[John Nickell]

Mike,

These cars started life out with a 6 volt positive ground electrical system. The positive post from the battery will be grounded if still original.

[randroid]

Mike,

When I lived in Estes Park, where the air density is 30-35% less dense than sea level, I had to advance the snot out of my timing to get it to run well, At the elevation where we live now it's only 10-12% less than sea level and it isn't an issue that needs immediate attention.

What you need to do (if the battery isn't fried) is reverse the polarity of the battery so that + is the ground. That was MOPAR's way of doing things back then and it isn't as bass-akward as it sounds; the logic (also used by the US Navy when I was in during the late 60's) is that ions are what flow in electricity and ions have a negative charge, ergo negative is the hot side. Just be glad you're working on an old car and not rewiring a WWII Diesel-Electric submarine. Swap the battery connections then, before you turn on the key, polarize the voltage regulator.

"Remove the lead from the generator field terminal, then ground the generator field terminal and strike strike a jumper from the battery negative post to the armature terminal on the generator." That was almost verbatum from the factory manual, and what you're doing is building a residual magnetism so that all those pesky ions travel in the desired direction and should be done whenever you replace a part of the charging system. It will cause some sparks and only needs to be a momentary connection, but if all is right with the world it should solve the charging question. If it doesn't solve the problem you're up **** creek with at least one part but since this needs to be done with new stuff anyway you may as well try it with the old components first.

There was a thread last year about painting a car with Rustoleum. I have a copy of it around somewhere on CD and will send it if you'd like, but basically you prep the car as though you were going to spray it and then roll-on eight coats, sanding between every second coat. I'm going to do that to my '48 P-15 this Spring and I'll keep everybody posted, but the neat part is that if it doesn't come out like I want I'm out less than $100. Ace Hardware can mix the paint to PPG formulae for about $25\gallon, and since I'll be rolling it on instead of spraying it I won't need to pay for a bunch of one-time impliments and the whole car should take less than two gallons. Just a thought.

-Randy

[Guest mike_D24]

What you need to do (if the battery isn't fried) is reverse the polarity of the battery so that + is the ground...

That's a riot (not the funny kind, the kind that has angry people and cars on fire). That's one piece I missed in reading up on this car. The guy before me is the one that put in that battery, so I didn't think anything of it. I wonder if that's why the starter would sometimes buzz and spin freely? Like a ratchet or something to that effect. That would certainly explain the melting by the terminal. Sheesh.

I'll try polarizing the regulator like you said. It sounds a little bit like de/remagnification of rare earth magnets. I hope it's not fried from all that reverse running. I was basically running amperes (not sure how many that coil makes) to the rest of the system instead of the battery. Not so great.

The bit about the altitude makes sense. On my bikes, I always shifted lean, because most of my riding would be starting from 119 above Blackhawk or way out by Ward. I don't know how much speeding through the twisties I'll be doing in this ol' girl. I will probably adjust to see if some of the lag can be removed, but until I know it's not other things, I won't be fiddling. For instance, I no longer suppose the hard starting is directly air-related.

Rustoleom. That's funny. I know some guys who did their bikes in truck bed liner. Not pretty, but durable and mean. It's pretty much a one-time thing and you're done. Once you roll on some of that paint, take some pictures. I'd love to see what it looks like. I can't imagine the gloss could be that high, but I'd love to see some results. It's a laquer base, isn't it? Send me that old post only if it's not too much trouble. I'll do some searching of a similar nature. That might be just the quick fix I need until I can afford a professional job. I've thrown paint before, but that's only on plastics or gas tanks that are no more than a few square feet. Not a problem. Consistency has got to be harder on the ridiculous amount of surface this car has. Not to mention all the folds and creases. I was intially figuring I'd do it myself, but I think if I want it to come out mint, I may need to leave it to the profe$$ionals.

Thanks for all the help. Johnny says we all need to get together soon. I agree strongly. I think I already owe the three of you (John, Johnny, Randy) a reward/coffee/pat-on-the-back (depending on the thickness of my wallet).

Mike

[Young Ed]

Wait a minute. If you own an old car and still have a thick wallet something is wrong!

[Guest mike_D24]

Wait a minute. If you own an old car and still have a thick wallet something is wrong!

Well it's already 4Gs thinner (a G being a US measurement of wallet thickness ) and thinning by the day. These projects are only black holes if you're not sure where the money is going. Fortunately, I can see the rewards of that money being spent right here on this board.

A footnote to my previous post: I totally found the posts on roller painting. It looks fantastic for $50! I'm so psyched, I'm going to begin sanding and prepping today.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2331682&an=0&page=0#2331682

Thanks Randy.

And thanks for the reality check, dodgepu1946.

Mike

[1just4don]

Yes it is so common to put a battery in positive hot,negative ground in ALL our modern machinery the guy takes the oldie out without looking much,sticks the new one in just like he did last week in his girlfriends daily ride.

THE 'one' thing you need to check is the old golden rule. Doesnt cost a dime and easy to do. Their is a plus and minus sign on the coil sides posts. (you know what THEY mean)Make "SURE" it is positive to distributor. I still remember the jingle from my youth. Positive ground,positive to distributor,,,negative ground negative to distributor!!! Easy to switch around and goof up the polarity of the coil///gen.

The exception IS if somebody converted it over to 12 v negative ground,,,,which is highly doubtful in an all original car,,,most of those were rodder conversions,,,OR a sophisticated guru like abound here!!!

I used to run a regular 6v positive ground battery in the car. I was driving it to work in early 70's and HAD to get there. So in the winter when the 6v wouldnt turn fast enough to start,,,I put a 12v battery on the hump(inside) and ran a couple cables in,,,like demo derby days, and manuelly jumped the starter and wow she started then in the coldest of weather cause the starter was turning X2. Plus had alot of life!! Put it on the charger once in a while!!

Have fun,,,-d-

[Guest mike_D24]

What you need to do (if the battery isn't fried) is reverse the polarity of the battery so that + is the ground.

Battery switched. Attempted what you said about the generator and voltage regulator.

I still find that when I crank the starter, the ground wire is still getting hot. Hot enough to cause damage to the insulation around the wire. He'd put the ground going to a head bolt (I would think that's ground enough).

Starting was easier, but I don't know how much of that to attribute to 50deg temps out and a freshly charged battery. First crank four times caused the starter to do that run-away spinning sound. Tap tap again on the throttle, and crank at the same time and the engine caught on the third or fourth. This time, the Amp meter indicated a HUGE positive current. Almost at max. Then, as the engine warmed, it dropped down to a notch above 0 and stayed there with an occasional bounce. I have a feeling I messed up some of the electricals in the process, because now the turn signal in the dash stays on constant when selected.

I know I need to replace all wires. I don't think I'll be starting the car unnecessarily again, because I'm concerned with hot wires. I don't want to fry other things in the process.

Incidentally, I found some rust-through. I cleaned the trunk out completely to find some sort of disintegrated rubbery goo that I did my best to scrape out. I then upholstered the trunk with some left-over carpeting that was in there. I took out the spare, and underneath was where the rust through was. I must not have noticed it when I was looking at the car from underneath. It was intact, but in taking out the spare, I mostly destroyed the floor there. The rest of the trunk was fine. There was an old fuel pump, a carb, and some small trinkets and odds and ends. They all seemed rusted and useless.

I'm growing restless not having anything to do yet. I really need to just focus on getting the brakes redone. That will take my mind off the fact that I can't get to all the other things without proper tools, manuals, and work space.

On the plus side, I've got 4 days of sun and low 50s. In that time, in addition to starting on the brakes, I can do some rust sanding, bondo-ing, and maybe even a few coats of enamel. With more snow on the way, I'd like to prevent any further rusting.

Mike

[martybose]

From your description I would bet that someone replaced the battery cable with a generic 12V one. Find a shop that can make you up a set of 00 gauge wire, and that problem will be gone!

Marty

[Johnny S]

Mike, one thing at a time....keep that in mind. It all comes apart and goes together one thing at a time. That is the way of the world unless you have an entire "crew" working on various pieces simultaneously. It sounds like you are on top of the electrical issue....battery cables are notorious for being the wrong ones unless the person with the car was really in the know. I'd suggest using a couple cans of PB Blaster or Kroil or some other equally good penetrant and start soaking up some of the fasteners and particularly get some on those rear brake drum....not too much and not on the linings....just on the area around the hex nut where it will eventually pull off. I would also suggest taking some photos if you have a digital camera. Those photos can go a long ways in helping you describe what you are seeing and it will also help others react more quickly and accurately to a possible solution. So, one thing at a time. Although it is permissible to have everything going at once like most of us end up doing too..... :-) The rule is "one thing at a time"........ do as I say ........ not as I do.....

[1just4don]

...this car stored outside in the rain and snow?? Like for years previous?? All the rusted stuff in the trunk sounds like your rubber seal supposedly keeping out the moisture is 'shot' and funneling water inside the trunk instead. IF there is that much rust in there, there is a reason. OR back window funneling it down to spare tire area??

Those rusted items may be better than you think, throw them in a bucket (Ice cream buckets with lid on, works well,)of diesel fuel and forget them for a month,then look at them again!! gently tap till rusted tight stuff moves where it is supposed to.

[Johnny S]

Mike, if you haven't caught it yet make sure you read the thread going on about removing brake drums...great discussion from folks who have been there.

[Guest mike_D24]

Mike, if you haven't caught it yet make sure you read the thread going on about removing brake drums...great discussion from folks who have been there.

It's a good one.

And thanks for your advice, too.

And Marty, and Don.

I'm on top of it, but I'll still have to set a pace. How about electrical, and then sealing up a bit so no more water damage can occur?

Mike

[Johnny S]

Mike_D24 on left and Johnny S on right have an unnamed third party (a Chevy fan I might add) take a quick but poorly lit shot of the changing hands of tools at the Denver Swap meet this weekend. I must say Mike is full of enthusiasm.....hang on Mike and make it last.....you have a very interesting vehicle and should have a lot of fun with it.

[Guest mike_D24]

Mike_D24 on left and Johnny S on right have an unnamed third party (a Chevy fan I might add) take a quick but poorly lit shot of the changing hands of tools at the Denver Swap meet this weekend. I must say Mike is full of enthusiasm.....hang on Mike and make it last.....you have a very interesting vehicle and should have a lot of fun with it.

I typically don't make that tough-guy face. I think I was in the process of saying "I don't come out good in pic--" CLICK.

Next time lets hang out with some of the other guys, too. You can bring your Chevy friend...I guess.

Mike

[Guest mike_D24]

Mike, a year or more ago some posts were made about repairing the spare tire well with a motor cycle fender. The curved fender seemed to work great to replicate that area. Maybe they will post a pic. Don't remember who it was.

Being a cycle guy, maybe you have access to a fender or two.

I was thinking about fabbing something out of plastic, but you're right. That's a great idea. Some harley fenders are still metal, and that would make for an easier fix than plastic (unless the plastic fit was perfect).

I'll take measurements and start looking around. I was even just thinking about hammering out some sheet metal. It's not a vital part, and aesthetics don't matter much there.

Thanks!

Mike

[Young Ed]

You may be able to find a donor panel too. There are a couple spare wells at the archives(our storage facility) I think they are spoken for though. I believe thats the one spot that isn't rusty on my 51.

[Brad Lustig]

Mike,

When I lived in Estes Park, where the air density is 30-35% less dense than sea level, I had to advance the snot out of my timing to get it to run well, At the elevation where we live now it's only 10-12% less than sea level and it isn't an issue that needs immediate attention.

-Randy

How long ago did you live in Estes? My sister used to live there until about 4 years ago.